Live 6 complaint !!! File management system is messed up

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sweetjesus
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Live 6 complaint !!! File management system is messed up

Post by sweetjesus » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:49 am

The simplicity of the file management system is lost and managing ones media is now a complete PITA.

Filders and sub folders get created everywhere. Live clips do not contain the referencing audio files and saving self contained creates another sea of confusion.

I feel that managing my media has taken 2 steps backwards and we were better off without it.

Sales Dude McBoob
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Post by Sales Dude McBoob » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:23 am

I spend waaay too much time telling Live to go search for the samples in my custom Impulse presets. Start a new set and the samples get lost somehow all over again.

:x

glu
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Post by glu » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:32 am

all this has been really discouraging me from upgrading to 6- I'm just worried that all my tracks will be wacked out, and I am in the middle of two projects I cannot finish on my current notebook, so when I get a new computer, I will have to get my songs successfully loaded onto a new machine, and then successfully update to L6. It's been something I have not been looking forward to doing.
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MR Coogs
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Post by MR Coogs » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:34 am

I brought it up in another thread, but I will agree that it sucks.

Its odd that I can find samples with the system find dialog, but live cannot.

Forget fingerprinting, anyone who renames their samples outside of a session is a going to loose track of things anyway.

Does Live have it's own search subsystem or does it use the operating system hooks/indexes?

Back to manually relinking samples. Though it might 'automatically' find them if I click the button again.. hmm.
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frahnque
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Post by frahnque » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:01 am

speaking of which. Does the "sample finding" function use Spotlight on the mac? Could it? Because I have a feeling the lookups would be blazingly much faster, if It'd actually use that.
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pepezabala
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Post by pepezabala » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:26 am

frahnque wrote:speaking of which. Does the "sample finding" function use Spotlight on the mac? Could it? Because I have a feeling the lookups would be blazingly much faster, if It'd actually use that.
It seems that it doesn't. Using the finder to search for samples is incredibly fast - if you compare it with window or with Live's built in search.

Did anyone try to transfer complete self contained sets from a windows PC to a mac on 6.05? I was just doing this and although the project folder contained all the samples/recordings, the live set would open with missing samples. If I use the built in search/filemanagement and it doesn't find them although I chose as only option option "search in project folder". If I click on the search button to the left of the missing sample, Live find's it. After dragging and dropping it from the browser to the "Missing samples list" a search with only option "search next to found sample" would be successful.

But why in hell does a freshly self contained set open with missing samples and not find them in it's own project folder?

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Post by chris_dan » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:55 am

I'll play the guy way out in left field....I think that the current browser has been improved compared to Live5. I'll admit that the initial change took some time to get used to. The inclusion of the "date" and "size" fields was mandatory based on the Live6 browser...with all like file types in specific directories the additional browser fields, I find, is the only way to locate files...that was a real PITA.

I don't recall where I read it and correct me if it's already common knowledge but I created separate directories (folders) under the Set folder for about 20 projects and then moved all the related .als files to their new directories under Sets. Now I can't recall if I did the same for the Sample folder....shit! I'm in the middle of a renovation and my desktop unit is packed away cause it's not crazy about drywall dust. I only tried in on the desktop and my laptop is still in the original format. Anyway the long and short of it was that I was able to organize my directory structure so that all related project files are contained in identifiable directories...kind of like the good ol'days...but with a better browser IMHO. To be on the safe side I used Live's browser to do all the moving just in case they index the files and then ran the file mgnt utility against the new structure and boom I was back in business. I backed up all my files before hand and initially tested it on one specific project. Maybe I'll try it on my laptop tonight or this morning....or whatever......
Chris

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:26 am

Hi,

For the search function, please try, on top of enabling 'search folder' and setting the right folder (when you know where the samples are), to enable 'fully rescan folders - and only that. That works for me. this can be seen as a 'wrong behaviour' and is worked on.

About pepezabala's issue, we'll investigate, there may be a problem of relative path somewhere, but the search advice above should apply.

Sweetjesus, tell us more in details about your problems, and we'll try to clarify. What is unclear about subfolders? Aren't they clearly idetified?

And about saving clip's material, my thinking is that at least you can now include the audio with the clip. It is just not automatic. With Live 5, you didn't have a chance to do it and were condemned to leave your audio files where they were forever. At least that's how I recall it.

The system can certainly be improved, and while it is already worked on, constructive suggestions are welcome.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:42 pm

i know theres probably some reason for this but the whole creating sub folders within subfolders thing has got to go.

collect all and save is now a perplexing thing and i havent got my head around it other than simply going to a whole new folder and creating a new folder somewhere and then having to save my project there and then collect all and save.... no workflow there at all.

when you drag a clip or track to the library or somewhere, it shoudl be able to make a copy of that live clip and all its associated data... maybe save the associated sampled with it as an option because moving content from one system to another like this is impossible.

i wont tell you the solution but heres another scenario...

draggings all ones clips to the browser to be stored as live clips.. ok good... then copy the 10 folders live has created to another machine.. then open each folder individually in lives browser and then drag a clip across only to find out that the samples are not there... ok go back to main machine and try and locate the particular file... lost in a sea of folders and subfolders of recorded, processed, frozen... which one could it be? .. create new project and drag live clips in then save project somewhere isolated then collect all files and save followed by trying to find the right files and copying them to the original machine only to find that restoring the samples by search wont work (although i will try your remedy above)...

its this kind of abstraction which is too much to handle when you are already looking at the depth of your projects bowels then have to step back and use some other metaphor to determine how you manage content which you manage using a different paradigm.

totally illogical after a few months of heavy use and now hardcore use of live 6 with regards to project and element preparation.

sorry for the rant style, enjoy the curry.

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Post by pepezabala » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:52 pm

Amaury,

I learn to appreciate the project management everyday a little bit more, and I think it has some great functions. The self contained set-transfer issue I mentioned is weird, and I believe that I did everything correctly but live stumbles somewhere.

What is a big problem when searching for missing files is that all recorded audiofiles get names like 001-1audio.wav etc. (I know that you only have to rename the channels and get different filenames, but in real-life you always record a bunch of files in a blank template before even saving the set).

What I always wanted to know: Why do we have to use those filenames for the searches? When using the exact date and time of the clips creation it should be way easier to find the correct files.

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Post by Amaury » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:15 pm

sweetjesus wrote:i know theres probably some reason for this but the whole creating sub folders within subfolders thing has got to go.
I personally would not like my croped samples to be mixed with the frozen ones, mixed with my Live recordings in the same folder... but that is subject to discussion, and please feel free to add a wish in the appropriate section. You know I read it! It also has other advantages to export projects to the Library: the subfolder structure is kept and third party companies that provide content for Live are using the system so their material resides in custom folder, after exporting to the Library.
collect all and save is now a perplexing thing and i havent got my head around it other than simply going to a whole new folder and creating a new folder somewhere and then having to save my project there and then collect all and save.... no workflow there at all.
If you saved your set somewhere outside the Library, so Live created a project folder for your set, choose 'collect and save' from the File menu, and it acts as 'save as self contained' in Live 5: all files, including the ones from the Library, are saved within the project folder. As straight as in Live 5, or? Am I missing something?

Now if you want to exclude some files, you can do it via 'manage files' in the File menu, then 'manage project', or via a right click on the Project in the Browser, and you can choose what to include or not before pressing 'collect and save' at the bottom of the screen.
when you drag a clip or track to the library or somewhere, it shoudl be able to make a copy of that live clip and all its associated data... maybe save the associated sampled with it as an option because moving content from one system to another like this is impossible.
I would say that is a valid wish to have a modifier key or the option to automatically include the sample when saving a Live clip. But certainly not to be the default behaviour.
As it is now: the thing is once you have saved your clip, you can right click on it, and choose 'manage file. You'll then see the option to click 'yes' to collect it with the project (the folder that contains the clip), then click 'collect and save' at the bottom of the file manager, and all material is within the same project folder. Again, the clip in in the same subfolder structure as it was if it is from the Library or from another project, but that is I guess for import convenience.
i wont tell you the solution but heres another scenario...

draggings all ones clips to the browser to be stored as live clips.. ok good... then copy the 10 folders live has created to another machine.. then open each folder individually in lives browser and then drag a clip across only to find out that the samples are not there... ok go back to main machine and try and locate the particular file... lost in a sea of folders and subfolders of recorded, processed, frozen... which one could it be? .. create new project and drag live clips in then save project somewhere isolated then collect all files and save followed by trying to find the right files and copying them to the original machine only to find that restoring the samples by search wont work (although i will try your remedy above)...
Same as before. With the addition that it is advised to drag all ten clips to the same folder for the matter you describe, be it one by one, or together, in which case it creates a Live set. Then you can right click on that project folder and choose 'manage project', click yes to include all samples refered, click 'collect and save' and you're done. You don't have to manually look for the samples in the subfolders structure.

So, do I have good for the solution?? :)

Again this subfolders structure (the Library one and the 'Samples' folder one) are for organization convenience and we can discuss it.
its this kind of abstraction which is too much to handle when you are already looking at the depth of your projects bowels then have to step back and use some other metaphor to determine how you manage content which you manage using a different paradigm.

totally illogical after a few months of heavy use and now hardcore use of live 6 with regards to project and element preparation.

sorry for the rant style, enjoy the curry.
I think you only missed two things (and I repeat, even if not for you, but that should be useful to the community):

-the ability to right click on a single file in the Live Browser to inspect it: being a Live clip, a set, a preset, you can then choose to save all its refering data along with it, without having to manually locate it. The material will either save in the Library if the clip/set/preset is in the Library, or in the Project folder is it resides in a custom Project folder

-The fact that a Project foder does not necessarily contain Live sets, and can contain multiple objects, such as Live clips and/or presets. Then the material of these can be collected and you can even make a Live pack of the Project to move it around.

I see too wishes here:

-a possibility to save the used material along with the clip in one action (what about presets?)
-a possibility to get rid of the subfolder structure in some cases.

Hope that helps,

kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:19 pm

pepezabala wrote:Amaury,

I learn to appreciate the project management everyday a little bit more, and I think it has some great functions. The self contained set-transfer issue I mentioned is weird, and I believe that I did everything correctly but live stumbles somewhere.

What is a big problem when searching for missing files is that all recorded audiofiles get names like 001-1audio.wav etc. (I know that you only have to rename the channels and get different filenames, but in real-life you always record a bunch of files in a blank template before even saving the set).

What I always wanted to know: Why do we have to use those filenames for the searches? When using the exact date and time of the clips creation it should be way easier to find the correct files.
Hi,

I think that is what 'require exact match' is for.
As for your issue, we are investigating. Something seems definitely wrong there...

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:22 pm

How about a split browser?
2 browsers with adjustable size where the one currently is.
When you drop a Live clip that is linked to a sample, the second browser pops up with the sample placed in the project folder.

You can rename the sample, then make presets of it.
If you make presets first, then rename the sample. You'll need to replace the sample for all presets in the project manager. You only have to link the sample once. Live will adjust all the presets that are currently in the project.

I started buildiing my sample library in the live 5 library. Now my sample library is a project folder ;). Very easy to back up and always compatible with the latest version of Live.

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Post by Tarekith » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:29 pm

I just wanted to pipe in and say I agree that the new file management features are kinda confusing. Well, not confusing, but not exactly as easy and straight forward as it could be. Way too many folders, just give me one called "audio" for each project, I could care less if that audio was rendered, recorded, imported, frozen, etc.

Also, manage files is a pain, because when you delete unused sample for instance, it doesn't reflect those samples are now deleted until you close and reopen the manage files pane again. Their gone in the browser, but not the summary pane.

I'd lvoe to see an autocrop options, so any unused parts of an audio file are not stored with the project. IE, I have a 5 minute audio file, but in Live I'm only using 8 bars of it. Crop that as a new sample, and get rid of the larger file (as an option of course, not the deault behavior).
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hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:29 pm

Maybe (probably) I'm being stupid here, but when I drag a clip or set of clips to the browser, I DON'T want a Project Folder created! I just want the Live clip to be saved into an existing normal folder.

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