Live 6 complaint !!! File management system is messed up

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Josh Von
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Post by Josh Von » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:36 pm

Amaury wrote: the 'Waveform' is the old folder from the Live 5 Library that contains the factory samples. Keep it, who knows if in your manipulations, there would not be some samples needed into it.

A quick comment on this, and re: the overall issue of Abletons naming scheme in the Library combined with a sparse amount of details about how/why the Library works:

First thing I thought when I saw "Waveforms" in Live beta 5 Library, was that you were implying that we should be moving our audio data into your Library for management.

Also recall thinking the same thing rik thought about Sets - you wanted us to store them there.

I tried to merge the Waveforms - it didnt work out. I left my sets where they were however... thankfully I did, based on what has happened to rik

I think this has to a common conclusion(s) people are coming to, and if it is you can understand what kind of mass confusion there must be out there about what you intend with the Library

Better explanations are definitely in order I agree .. thanks for giving us some here but if it isnt made obvious thru new manual addendum and tutorials this will be going on for a while

.

.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:43 pm

I agree with this post. If something was easily explained or understood, we wouldn't have a 9-page thread on it. I know intentions were good, and the functionality is also good. I think the implementation needs some serious usability testing. I'd even go so far as to ask for a Preferences button that shuts OFF the file management, so that I can go back to L5/L4-saving.

Also, props to Amaury. Thanks again for all your input - I hope you are not upset by all this discourse. We all appreciate the dialog.
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Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:49 pm

The downside is that i think we're locked into this methodolgy now. People will of course complain that the library keeps changing each revision, and Amaury has hinted that the current structure has a lot of benefit for third party sample library developers. Though other than some of the user drivengroups from the these forums (trackteam, etc), it's not like there's a lot of other companies developing for the Live format so far.

I do like the tutorial idea though. I consider myself fairly intelligent, and the library confuses even me. Still, after 9 pages of threads.

:(
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nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:50 pm

Tarekith wrote:I consider myself fairly intelligent
That's your problem right there.
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nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:51 pm

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:27 am

rikhyray wrote:Now , something tinteresting and probably usefull for you.
I did change the structure of the original Live 5 song that i described in previous post into the same as of the Live 6 one.
Open it appears "samples are missing" go to manage scan the project "no samples" found, choose the folder exactly to subfolder where they are , scan "No samples found. That they are there I can see for sure in my open browser on the left side. So this is the evidence you were looking for. The samples are there in the project but the searcher cannot find them, I did set folder to first "Projects Live" where they are located , then to the specific project, finally even"recorded" where they are located still " no samples found". If I click on the circle on the left side of missing sample name it finds the old, original in the Library ( which I didn't delete since I have to be sure that everything works) but not the collected one.
Using regular XP search finds both with one difference it took less then a second, typed the name, not even complete, specified drive only, not even the folder clicked search and the result was immediately there, while Live search takes 10-20 seconds.
Mind you I didnt even do that renaming of folders outside Live did it all on the left side browser.
Yet OS finds it immediately and Live search never.
There is no question something is very, very wrong.
Hope that will help


The VST presets had lots of subfolders with VST names, all empty so I deleted it. What about the "Presets" folder which lists Lives FX audio and midi, is it in correct place or another lost and unnecessary folder.
Hi,
Thanks for your report. That is indeed one of the search behaviour that I reported being known and worked on. For now, if you also enable 'fully recan folders', appart from 'search folder' (so enable the two of them), Live should find the files. Again, this is quite wrong and worked on.

But you don't really have to copy by hand the files in a Live 6-like subfolder architecture, unless you want it. It does not really matter how organized are the files in the Project folder. Live 6 has its own one, but you can move the files inside the Project folder to your own organization - and will have to re-link the files if the set is not opened in Live while you do this.

To not loose too much time, and if you are you could try to:
-open one of your old Live 5 sets that is in the Library
-save as in another location on the computer
-choose 'collect and save' from the file menu. See the structure inside your project folder, keep it that way if you like it, it won't affect the project.

Then, you will have the right structure for your newly made projects, with Live 6.

The Preset folder is at its place, it contains all of the Presets for the Live devices. Don't touch it.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:16 pm

Thanks Amaury I cannot proceed exactly this way as I moved the folder with pre ver6 projects outside the Library and renamed it Live 5 Projects, to avoid possible confusion.
I reinstalled version 5 and it made me realize that there is nothing I miss from ver 6 while being blessed with stability.
I will definitely keep version 5 on and if need to do anything with old projects will use the ver 5 only.
I am not even sure if I will be using ver 6 unless and untill it becomes fully operational

chris_dan
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Post by chris_dan » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:13 pm

Amaury wrote:
rikhyray wrote:Now , something tinteresting and probably usefull for you.
I did change the structure of the original Live 5 song that i described in previous post into the same as of the Live 6 one.
Open it appears "samples are missing" go to manage scan the project "no samples" found, choose the folder exactly to subfolder where they are , scan "No samples found. That they are there I can see for sure in my open browser on the left side. So this is the evidence you were looking for. The samples are there in the project but the searcher cannot find them, I did set folder to first "Projects Live" where they are located , then to the specific project, finally even"recorded" where they are located still " no samples found". If I click on the circle on the left side of missing sample name it finds the old, original in the Library ( which I didn't delete since I have to be sure that everything works) but not the collected one.
Using regular XP search finds both with one difference it took less then a second, typed the name, not even complete, specified drive only, not even the folder clicked search and the result was immediately there, while Live search takes 10-20 seconds.
Mind you I didnt even do that renaming of folders outside Live did it all on the left side browser.
Yet OS finds it immediately and Live search never.
There is no question something is very, very wrong.
Hope that will help


The VST presets had lots of subfolders with VST names, all empty so I deleted it. What about the "Presets" folder which lists Lives FX audio and midi, is it in correct place or another lost and unnecessary folder.
Hi,
Thanks for your report. That is indeed one of the search behaviour that I reported being known and worked on. For now, if you also enable 'fully recan folders', appart from 'search folder' (so enable the two of them), Live should find the files. Again, this is quite wrong and worked on.

But you don't really have to copy by hand the files in a Live 6-like subfolder architecture, unless you want it. It does not really matter how organized are the files in the Project folder. Live 6 has its own one, but you can move the files inside the Project folder to your own organization - and will have to re-link the files if the set is not opened in Live while you do this.

To not loose too much time, and if you are you could try to:
-open one of your old Live 5 sets that is in the Library
-save as in another location on the computer
-choose 'collect and save' from the file menu. See the structure inside your project folder, keep it that way if you like it, it won't affect the project.

Then, you will have the right structure for your newly made projects, with Live 6.

The Preset folder is at its place, it contains all of the Presets for the Live devices. Don't touch it.

Regards,
Amaury
As per my post way back on page one I still maintain that the new file system is an improvement to what we had. I doubt that Ableton's objective was to wreak havoc amongst the users but regardless that's what happened. They should have taken more care to alert the users about the dramatic change as well as what benefit we will derive in the long run. I know for me it was a series of WTF when migrating the Live5 data to the new Live6 structure. In theory the new structure is very simple but none the less very different than before. I have been testing different approaches to the new structure over the last couple of days based on information that Amaury has been posting. Here's a list of points that I've observed:

1) You can create sub directories under Sets and group your like sets (.als) within the new directories. I used Live's browser to create the new folders and also the move the files. Running the file management utility against the new Sets structure did not create any problems and all files where located when loading a moved set. The only benefit is that now my Sets folder only contains sub folders of all the different projects with the related set files in the sub folders.

2) I then used the same logic and created a sub folder under the \Samples\Recorded folder for a test project identified in Sets. I used the file management utility to move the recorded .wav/.asd files into the newly created subfolder and then ran the file management util and still no problems. The moved samples were located and loaded as per the .als file.

3) I then recorded a new track for the moved project. The new .wav was still saved in the \Samples\Recorded folder and NOT in the new folder I created under \Samples\Recorded\new_folder. I tried it several times and the results were the same. I was expecting that by manually moving the .wavs with the file management util it would use the new path for any recorded .wav on a go forward basis but to no avail.

4) Based on Amaury's postings I created a new directory far away from the Ableton directory under My Documents. When saving a new test Set file (.als) in the remote directory I first created an identifiable folder under the remote directory using a name to identify the project. Ableton then saved all the necessary files correctly in the new remote directory with all the related folders required. Now I can at least keep all related files for a project within a directory.

5) As I mentioned the suggestion to use a totally new directory structure came from a post by Amaury and as I noted above this does work both for Live6 and the file management util. Worth noting is that when in this new directory you can right click on the parent folder and run the file management util from the browser. In fact that is the only way to run the utility unless you point the utility to the new directory structure in Prefs which would be a real PITA.

6) The question that begs to be asked of Ableton is if this is the sanctioned work around perhaps it should have been the standard with the option of utilizing their current structure if desired? Perhaps their new structure has some benefits to the coding of the software....? Only "they" know whoever "they" are.......

7) As I mentioned in my post back on page one and confirmed during my recent testing when you save a file in Live6 you will notice that in the lower left corner of the information bar that Live6 is "indexing" these files for it's internal database requirements. This leads me to believe that it is IMPERATIVE to use the Live6 browser to perform any type of file movement or else run the risk of Live6 not being able to find the file.

8 - I then added some plugins and effects and was hoping to see the necessary folders created to hold the preset data. That was not the case. Although the set loaded correctly with all the selected presets it was still pulling the data from the original Live6 library under My Documents. I did not try the "collect all and save" option and perhaps this would have addressed the preset files.

Anyway if someone finds the above info to be of any value then give it a try but if you do PLEASE be certain to backup any data files before you do your testing. I believe strongly in Murphy's Law so by backing up my data I was assured not to have any problems. If you don't backup the data your inviting Murphy in for a visit.....

It's obvious that there's a multitude of opinions on this subject but I also believe that to many cooks in the kitchen can ruin the meal.
Chris

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:22 am

OK... I've read through this thread... re-read the manual...

I STILL can't figure out how to do a 'Save Live Set As' and get a plain, old-fashioned, simple .als, and NOT a f*cking project folder!

pepezabala
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Post by pepezabala » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:26 pm

hambone1 wrote:OK... I've read through this thread... re-read the manual...

I STILL can't figure out how to do a 'Save Live Set As' and get a plain, old-fashioned, simple .als, and NOT a f*cking project folder!
it's sooooo easy: Save it into a project folder.

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:46 pm

chris_dan wrote:
6) The question that begs to be asked of Ableton is if this is the sanctioned work around perhaps it should have been the standard with the option of utilizing their current structure if desired? Perhaps their new structure has some benefits to the coding of the software....? Only "they" know whoever "they" are.......
With the exception of your experiments in creating additional sub-folders, nothing you describe sounds like a workaround. It sounds like exactly how the file management system was designed to work.

(?)

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:57 pm

I suppose Ableton should not have created such generic folder names in the default Library structure, like "Sets" "Clips" "Waveforms" "Samples"

Maybe more like "Factory Content Clips" "Preset Waveforms" or something like that

chris_dan
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Post by chris_dan » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:25 pm

pepezabala wrote:
hambone1 wrote:OK... I've read through this thread... re-read the manual...

I STILL can't figure out how to do a 'Save Live Set As' and get a plain, old-fashioned, simple .als, and NOT a f*cking project folder!
it's sooooo easy: Save it into a project folder.
Hey hambone1,

Just to clarify pep's reply, if you want all your .als files to reside in the "Sets" directory you MUST comply with Live6's standard directory structure meaning that you save your set (.als) in the \My Documents\Ableton\Library\Sets directory. If you have created your own Live directory somewhere other than the above mentioned Ableton directory structure you are essentially telling Live6 to create a new "Project" formated directory structure each and every time. So in a nutshell if you follow Live6 standard directory structure all your project related files (.als, .wav, .asd, etc....) will be saved independently in their related folders under the \My Documents\Ableton\Library\structure which is what I believe your after. If you move your file path somewhere other than \My Documents\Ableton\ then you force Live6 to do the funky new project folder for each new save. For me I prefer to keep all my project (song) files organized in separate folders so I use the funky method.

Did I hear you straight up or did I just confuse the issue even further?
Chris

chris_dan
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Post by chris_dan » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:46 pm

longjohns wrote:
chris_dan wrote:
6) The question that begs to be asked of Ableton is if this is the sanctioned work around perhaps it should have been the standard with the option of utilizing their current structure if desired? Perhaps their new structure has some benefits to the coding of the software....? Only "they" know whoever "they" are.......
With the exception of your experiments in creating additional sub-folders, nothing you describe sounds like a workaround. It sounds like exactly how the file management system was designed to work.

(?)
Hi longjohns,

I shouldn't have used the term "workaround" on Ableton's behalf...it's simply my opinion. I have stated in several posts that I like the new file management system for the most part. If anything this topic has forced me to go back and re-evaluate my own file saving process and tweak it to comply with the Live6 code. I thought that posting my test results might help others but essentially I did it for my personal mind set.
Chris

LJ Martin
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Post by LJ Martin » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:54 am

I have a problem I have 850 songs in a folder for DJing and 850 Als files in another series of folders. I recently moved all of this off of my internal on to an external drive.

In Live 5 the first time I load an .als it asks me to locate the original file, after that it just looks in that folder automatically every time, and as all my track are in one folder it always finds them. No Problem.

With Live 6 I have to press the go button manually every time I load an .als. I would like live to keep looking in that folder every time without asking me to do it manually every time... i don't pre-plan my sets and having to search every time I load a track is stopping me from switching to Live 6 for Djing.

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