Live 6 complaint !!! File management system is messed up

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Amaury
Posts: 5884
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Location: Ableton Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:22 pm

rikhyray wrote:
I repeated the same question many a times and still waiting for the answer. Is there a way to have currently recorded audio go into user defined recognizable folder and not "hold it all" that includes everything from every song.
Is your only solution creating multiple instances of Libraries and resetting preference path manually for any song that I work on ?
I am not expecting any advanced , sophisticated system like of Pro tools just basic minimum- I start a project/song whatever you call it> define where the files are to be stored- not thrown in some kind of temp folder with everything else
Hi,

EDIT: what I meant is that I get the feeling you are saving your sets into the Library?

As I read your message now, I think there is a very basic (that is certainly not well explained anywhere yet), that you did not get. There are two things:

-the Library, which is a place where only commonly used files should be. The Library itself is a giant project, which allows to manage it *once in a while* - it is not meant to be managed every morning I guess.
-you have Project Folders, in which should only reside files belonging to one project. A Project folder contains sub folders to keep your stuff organized (one of the thing some other users don't like), including a 'recorded' folder.

You do not need to create a Project folder, it is created automatically when you save a Live set to a location that is NOT the Library or another existing Project folder.

Try this:
-create a new Live set
-save it (empty) somewhere on your computer, but not in the Library nor into another Project folder
-now record some audio into your set.

Go look in the location you saved your set to: there is a Project folder named after your set. Into that folder, you'll find a subfoder named 'recordings', containing the recording you've just made.
Now if you go back to Live, locate the Project into the Live Browser, right click on it, and choose 'manage project'. It should not take long, and it should show you the recorded sample.

You should repeat these exact same steps each time you start a new song. Only save multiple sets into the same Project folder if they are different versions of the same song, so they refer to the same material.

Once you are used to that logic, you can use it a bit differently. If, for instance, you start recording before saving the un-named set, then save it somewhere (not in the Library nor into another Project folder), the same will happen: a Project folder will be created, with a 'recordings' folder in it, and the already recorded material will be moved into it. Until then, the recorded material is temporarily stored into the temp folder chosen in the Preferences, File/Folder tab.

Hope that helps,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

scientist
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:06 am
Location: seattle

Post by scientist » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:27 pm

hey amaury, thanks again for all our help with this. in regards to a 'feature wishlist' thread, it might be helpful if you yourself start a 'file management' feature request thread for us to add to. a lot of things posted in that forum quickly disappear, so since this issue is obviously going to be worked on it'd be nice to have an official place to post.

Amaury
Posts: 5884
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Location: Ableton Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:35 pm

scientist wrote:hey amaury, thanks again for all our help with this. in regards to a 'feature wishlist' thread, it might be helpful if you yourself start a 'file management' feature request thread for us to add to. a lot of things posted in that forum quickly disappear, so since this issue is obviously going to be worked on it'd be nice to have an official place to post.
Hi Scientist,

two things:
-nothing is ever lost in the Wishlist forum, as I read it and take notes etc.. Plus, biggest wish come more iften, but I try to not miss small ones that come only once.
-the File management is one thing worked on amongst many, so it does not really make sense that it has a 'special' place in the forum.

@Rikhyrary: did you see my previous post? Have you tried saving your sets in another place than the Library?

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

longjohns
Posts: 9088
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:42 pm
Location: seattle

Post by longjohns » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:36 pm

rikhyray wrote: Is there a way to have currently recorded audio go into user defined recognizable folder and not "hold it all" that includes everything from every song.
Amaury wrote:Recordings in Live 6 go to a folder called 'recordings' which is inside your Project folder. In Live 5 it went to a *myset* sounds along with all other files, frozen etc...

scientist
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:06 am
Location: seattle

Post by scientist » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:42 pm

Amaury wrote:-nothing is ever lost in the Wishlist forum, as I read it and take notes etc..
then where's that damn slicer already? just kidding.
okay, so i'll start the thread with my own requests...anyone else who wants to pile on feel free...

rikhyray
Posts: 3644
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:13 pm
Contact:

Post by rikhyray » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:44 pm

Apart from the fact that there is no explanation anywhere what should what shouldn't be in the Library and what the Library really is and what for, it is the very installing the upgrade 6 that things gone wrong, possibly slightly different way for each user depending on what was there in ver 5. I suspect that the merging brings lots of mess. It must be related to names and the browser wrongly assuming something and giving errors.
I remember sometime ago Live running into demo mode for no reason, finally found the cause there was a score I was doing for someones video demo and I named "Demo" and that was kicking Live into demo mode. Like some cyborg in sci fiction movie you say some words and it goes into reset.
Now I do not know what the Library should be like, what folders should be inside, and where it should be. I kept it always on my "Live" partition not on C where OS is.
There is no any information what we should, must, or must not keep there, what cannot be deleted neither what should be stored there
Now my library looks like this:

Abvleton Project Info
anything we have to do about or is it all automatic?

Clips
never used any, can I delete them or perhaps place my own there ?

Lessons
Deleted them after going through them once, but they come back, it seems.

MIDI
I think must be my own, wanted to store my Live midi clips there, or is it Lives original ?

Presets-
That is obvious

Samples
By now know what that might be.

Sets-
here are all my songs, did I invent it and the name or it came in Live 5 ? No idea,

VST presets, Waveforms, Packages -
need no much explanation I guees

Anything else should be there and is missing ?

Apart from the "midi" which I can throw elsewhere, the main problem are the "Sets" As I understand you they all should be collected and saved outside Library under something like "Live Projects". I am really getting sensitive here about using names since that seems to trigger some unpredictable results.
Before I start moving things around would appreciate some explanation, information.
I guess after all we went throughhere a sticky with good explanation about Library and its role in ver.6 will be more productive using of your time and, save support lots of work. If so many hardcore users got in trouble imagine those less experienced.
Thanks
RR

deva
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Post by deva » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:10 pm

Amaury wrote:
rikhyray wrote:
I repeated the same question many a times and still waiting for the answer. Is there a way to have currently recorded audio go into user defined recognizable folder and not "hold it all" that includes everything from every song.
Is your only solution creating multiple instances of Libraries and resetting preference path manually for any song that I work on ?
I am not expecting any advanced , sophisticated system like of Pro tools just basic minimum- I start a project/song whatever you call it> define where the files are to be stored- not thrown in some kind of temp folder with everything else
Hi,

EDIT: what I meant is that I get the feeling you are saving your sets into the Library?

As I read your message now, I think there is a very basic (that is certainly not well explained anywhere yet), that you did not get. There are two things:

-the Library, which is a place where only commonly used files should be. The Library itself is a giant project, which allows to manage it *once in a while* - it is not meant to be managed every morning I guess.
-you have Project Folders, in which should only reside files belonging to one project. A Project folder contains sub folders to keep your stuff organized (one of the thing some other users don't like), including a 'recorded' folder.

You do not need to create a Project folder, it is created automatically when you save a Live set to a location that is NOT the Library or another existing Project folder.

Try this:
-create a new Live set
-save it (empty) somewhere on your computer, but not in the Library nor into another Project folder
-now record some audio into your set.

Go look in the location you saved your set to: there is a Project folder named after your set. Into that folder, you'll find a subfoder named 'recordings', containing the recording you've just made.
Now if you go back to Live, locate the Project into the Live Browser, right click on it, and choose 'manage project'. It should not take long, and it should show you the recorded sample.

You should repeat these exact same steps each time you start a new song. Only save multiple sets into the same Project folder if they are different versions of the same song, so they refer to the same material.

Once you are used to that logic, you can use it a bit differently. If, for instance, you start recording before saving the un-named set, then save it somewhere (not in the Library nor into another Project folder), the same will happen: a Project folder will be created, with a 'recordings' folder in it, and the already recorded material will be moved into it. Until then, the recorded material is temporarily stored into the temp folder chosen in the Preferences, File/Folder tab.

Hope that helps,
Amaury

Thanks for your explanations, Amaury, they have helped me understand better what Ableton intends with the file management system. I did have no clear idea how you were expecting users to do these things.

Maybe Ableton can make a video tutorial for users as it can be hard to follow complex instructions regarding file management when written here in a forum. A video tutorial would make this easier for users I think.

Also, Amaury:

If there are faulty searches and inconsistent results happening, this is a significant problem, can you confirm that this is a bug/issue? If users are having this sort of problem that rikhyray is describing, that results in lack of confidence in file management and maybe a level of frustration towards the new system that would not be there if it had no bugs.

I think a few people in this thread reported unreliable searches/results. Now I am scared to rely on the file management if it can delete by mistake files it should not. Can you address this point please.
rikhyray wrote: Now regarding the management system.
I followed all your instructions and the manual, There are too many errors both in searching process ( getting different results for the same thing) and what follows ( managing).
I will not recommend anyone deleting what comes as result for search for unused files. I did it but then checked every song located in Live Library (no room for error I have only one Library) and there were samples missing, I was carefull enough- prepared for the worst- and found them in trash bin and restored them.

rikhyray
Posts: 3644
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:13 pm
Contact:

Post by rikhyray » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:24 pm

I guess the solution will be to make the library new, structured as it should be by ver 6 default and I would expect serious improvement of the search machine.

Amaury
Posts: 5884
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Location: Ableton Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:38 pm

rikhyray wrote:I kept it always on my "Live" partition not on C where OS is.
This is not a problem, as long as the path in the Preferences is right
Abvleton Project Info
anything we have to do about or is it all automatic?
That folder is what makes the 'Library' folder a 'Porject', and any other Project you will create will contain such a folder.
Clips
never used any, can I delete them or perhaps place my own there ?
You can delete them if you wish not to use them at all. You can save yours there, though, as explained before in that thread, there are advantages in having your own Project folder for your clips, so you can manage that folder only.
Lessons
Deleted them after going through them once, but they come back, it seems.
You should not delete the lessons as I am sure you can still learn things from them. If you really want to get rid of them, uninstall the Lessons pack from the Preferences, Live packs tab. If something remains after doing so, delete it by hand (if you manually moved files it could hapen)
MIDI
I think must be my own, wanted to store my Live midi clips there, or is it Lives original ?
This is yours
Sets-
here are all my songs, did I invent it and the name or it came in Live 5 ? No idea,
This is created if you install the Demo songs pack
VST presets, Waveforms, Packages -
need no much explanation I guees
This is also yours

So, what I am saying is (sorry for the caps lock) you should NOT save your sets into the Library, for the reason that it makes it impossible to manage them.

Now that you have done so, DON'T delete any set. Create a folder somewhere on your computer, name it 'Live Sets' for example. Now, open them one by one and choose 'save as' in the file menu, and always save them at the root of the created folder.
Try with only one first. Now., it will AUTOMATICALLY create a Project folder (which will have the same name as the set, which will contain the set, and the files it needs, after doing this: choose 'collect and save' in the file menu.

For your NEW sets, read my previous post, and learn about the file manager, that gives you the choise to include or not include files from the Library. Really, try it as I described in my earlier post, just to understand how it should work.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

Amaury
Posts: 5884
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Location: Ableton Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:42 pm

deva wrote:If there are faulty searches and inconsistent results happening, this is a significant problem, can you confirm that this is a bug/issue? If users are having this sort of problem that rikhyray is describing, that results in lack of confidence in file management and maybe a level of frustration towards the new system that would not be there if it had no bugs.

I think a few people in this thread reported unreliable searches/results. Now I am scared to rely on the file management if it can delete by mistake files it should not. Can you address this point please.
Hi,
In our experience and from user feedbackm there is no error in the detection of unused file, at least not in the way that it would report a file as not used when it is used. The only danger, but that has always been here, is if you used the file in another project and don't remember. Live can report a file as used when it is not, but that is for the very reason that we made the system secure, for being sure to never loose a file.

The search function has in certain case difficulties to find missing files, but that is worked on.

Rickhyray has the problem that he recorded everything into the Library, which makes practically impossible to manage anything, thus bringing a high level of confusion and frustration.

I'll suggest the creation of a Video tutorial.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

kenporter
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: 5,660 miles from Ableton HQ

Post by kenporter » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:43 pm

I actually think the overall file management system is pretty slick.

The only thing I would like to see is if I store a clip, not a project, that I could have a choice referencing to the audio file or including it into a folder so that I can just swap/move clips with others. As it is right now, saving clips are really only useful for the same computer without ever moving the sample around. If I want the sample to be included I have to save a project and do "save and collect all", even if I only want to save a single clip. Unless I have been overlooking something...

Ken

Amaury
Posts: 5884
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Location: Ableton Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:57 pm

kenporter wrote:I actually think the overall file management system is pretty slick.

The only thing I would like to see is if I store a clip, not a project, that I could have a choice referencing to the audio file or including it into a folder so that I can just swap/move clips with others. As it is right now, saving clips are really only useful for the same computer without ever moving the sample around. If I want the sample to be included I have to save a project and do "save and collect all", even if I only want to save a single clip. Unless I have been overlooking something...

Ken
Hi,
As it is, when you save a clip anywhere on the computer but in an existing Project folder, Live creates a project folder. Then, in the Live Browser, locate that Project folder, expand it and rigth click on the clip, choose 'manage file' and use collect and save in the file manager.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

rikhyray
Posts: 3644
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:13 pm
Contact:

Post by rikhyray » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:49 pm

Amaury wrote:
This is created if you install the Demo songs pack
VST presets, Waveforms, Packages -
need no much explanation I guees
This is also yours

I did already all that what you written before reading your answers it all worked as it should but.... "But" is going back to the mess caused by those "Sets" in the library where all my projects were. So while a recent one done in 6 saved neatly in the little cute Live "suitcase" : Ableton Project Info Samples and xxxx.als the next one (old one) looks different: Ableton Project info songname.als and folder "Sets" inside it it "Ambient"( that was the name of folder where my Live 5 was) inside "song name sounds".
I dont recall now how it all ended up that I started using the Sets to store my projects but whatever it may cost- time I mean. I will rather one way or the other correct everything even manually to consistent new system.
If there is a chance the Live > browser> search machine gets confused because of that I rather reaoganise it now.creating Samples folder and moving everything from "songname sounds" into Samples> Recorded
I am guessing the subfolders etc might be the reason why the searcher is not finding things.
isn't`organizing it all in new Live 6 consistent way better idea ? Sacrificing 1 hour today rather then getting wrong results later ?
The VST presets, Waveforms Packages are not mine I thought they are Live`s ? definitely not mine. Could that be something that came from merging ? Can I delete all those ?
It is all getting cleared up. Good job Amaury.

Amaury
Posts: 5884
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Location: Ableton Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:58 pm

Hi,

the 'Waveform' is the old folder from the Live 5 Library that contains the factory samples. Keep it, who knows if in your manipulations, there would not be some samples needed into it.

the 'VST presets' is definitely not ours. What's in it? I doubt the 'Packages' one is either from Ableton. Same, what's in it?

For your older sets, you should do as I said, save them as, to a new location so it creates a cute little Live suitcase, and collect and save them. If some sets belong to the same material, you can save them within the same project folder. That is what it is for.

Do not delete your sets from the Library, at least not before you are 300% sure you have saved everything and everything works... I would even advice not to delete them at all, or at least to keep a backup on a CD or something.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

rikhyray
Posts: 3644
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:13 pm
Contact:

Post by rikhyray » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:36 pm

Now , something tinteresting and probably usefull for you.
I did change the structure of the original Live 5 song that i described in previous post into the same as of the Live 6 one.
Open it appears "samples are missing" go to manage scan the project "no samples" found, choose the folder exactly to subfolder where they are , scan "No samples found. That they are there I can see for sure in my open browser on the left side. So this is the evidence you were looking for. The samples are there in the project but the searcher cannot find them, I did set folder to first "Projects Live" where they are located , then to the specific project, finally even"recorded" where they are located still " no samples found". If I click on the circle on the left side of missing sample name it finds the old, original in the Library ( which I didn't delete since I have to be sure that everything works) but not the collected one.
Using regular XP search finds both with one difference it took less then a second, typed the name, not even complete, specified drive only, not even the folder clicked search and the result was immediately there, while Live search takes 10-20 seconds.
Mind you I didnt even do that renaming of folders outside Live did it all on the left side browser.
Yet OS finds it immediately and Live search never.
There is no question something is very, very wrong.
Hope that will help


The VST presets had lots of subfolders with VST names, all empty so I deleted it. What about the "Presets" folder which lists Lives FX audio and midi, is it in correct place or another lost and unnecessary folder.

Post Reply