Live 6 complaint !!! File management system is messed up

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
MR Coogs
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Post by MR Coogs » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:57 am

here's constructive:

If I index a "library" I expect Live to find all the samples in that library every time.

Example: I create a Live file in 5, move to 6 - now I can create a project folder.

Except: I've moved some samples around - same library, same names.

I should be able to open the session, "manage" my samples - tell it to look in the "Library" and have it find them.

Right now, it doesn't work. It finds some of them, misses others, then it might find a few more near the others it found on a second pass. I shouldn't have to have some special "code" of buttons selected to get it to find samples in my library.

And the candidates thing doesn't work very well either.
Lots of gear. :)

Josh Von
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Post by Josh Von » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:30 am

more constructive advice .. give us:

- Import Library (from File or File Management browser), and

- Choose Library Location (on install / re-install, and in File / File Management browser)


The first one allows us to specify our own library to pull it in en-masse into Abletons Library database. Either copy ./ move samples from where they currently are - or leave them where they are. our choice

The second fixes the problem of having all of the spurious Live databases all over our harddrives.

These are imo the most obvious ommissions for handling people with existing libraries. That they are not included is causing a lot of the grief.

Also:

"Manage Library" as a scan of our entire projects is really inefficient. Its scanning every single file and trying to scan too much data in every single time.

Is there no way to make this database persistant - first time full scan, then only scan quick changes?

.

shtreimel
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Post by shtreimel » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:57 am

Dear Lord...you know you're in trouble when you can't even follow content behind the complaints. All I know is, I installed Live 6...lovely. And then I dumped my Live 6 folder system onto my hard drive, tried to open it up and play....no samples. What a mess. So I manually searched and replaced each sample. In the process, I've lost other simpler samples. At this point, I don't care. I've got Live 6 working to the point of song composition.

But it's been a bit of a nightmare. Truly a shame.

rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:27 am

3 days and no answer from Amaury for very simple question, "is there any way to define where recorded goes other then Live 6 mega trash bin".
The idea of having another Library (Library for every single project/song) is ridiculous, would mean changing the Library path ( and remembering to do it) while changing from song to song.
Additionally, the file Manager freezes, does not detect samples despite selecting the folder where they are. It is absolutely stupid because meanwhile you could have done by hand 10 times manually. Live disappeared once completely when clicked on delete unused sample.
I would really appreciate some answer from Ableton when that montrous bug will be fixed, if at all and approximately direction.
It is a matter of finding temporary ( how temporary ?) solution or changing my main music application.
It would be great to know so accordingly adjust myself somehow,
I cannot really afford to keep betatesting, have to do my work too which with Live 6 became almost impossible.

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:33 am

All I know is that I was completely comfortable with 5's file management system.

It was easy, Live Clips were easy, managing my growing library of Live Clips was easy, DJ/VJ drag 'n dropping was easier, everything was easier. And I'm normally OK when it comes to learning how to use this kind of stuff, but I can't get my head around the logic (if there is any) of this mess. Perhaps if I could, it would be easier.
Last edited by hambone1 on Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:45 am

Thanks for all your input.

I'm still trying to sort:

-misunderstanding of how the File management works
-wishes and clear description of what does not work for you
-frustration and statements like 'I don't like it', which you are very free to express, but won't lead to any improvement as they don't provide any clue as what/how/why you don't like it.

@rickhray - thanks for trying. I still have some questions for you:
-What is slow for you? In my experience, what can be slow and could be improved is:
-search
-mange a project/Library
Is there anything else in your experience?

-indeed the file size is limited, but it is by the Operating system. It is 2 Go on Windows XP. The tricky thing is, Live uses FLAC (absolutely lossless) compression for the sounds while packing, and this does not give the same compression ratios for different bit depth, thus making extremely difficult to know what will be the size of the pack before actually packing it. Point taken, but I'm not sure if that can be improved
-if saving all sets referring to the same material in Live 5 as self contained, you would end up with as many Sounds folder as there are sets, containing the same data, right?
-what exactly does not work for you when searching for unused files? After choosing 'manage project', you can see what files are unused, sorted by categories: recordings, frozen files etc... Then you can choose 'show', select them all and erase them at once. What else? the advantages I see in that compared to the pop up in Live 5, are:
-you have a chance to review all samples, even to listen to them
-they are sorted by categories, so you can choose not to delete cropped files while you delete recorded files
one disadvantage is that it takes further steps. We'll consider the issue. But one key fact to always remember, is that the material can be referred by more than one set, that is the huge difference with Live 5. You can see that as a non-advantage, but I'm not sure if everybody agrees.

There could be errors in files reported as used when they are not (aren't they by another set in the Project, or a preset, or a Live clip?), but same would be in Live 5, just, you wouldn't notice it. We'll still look into that.

If you still have the energy for, I would advice to go through instructions again (maybe without watching hollywood stars on TV? :-) ) and see what works or not, so some things can still be useful to you for the time being.

@Josh Von - Thanks for your late message as it gives some precise indication of what does not work for you.

I understand your points, and certainly we have to improve the too things you point out, efficiency and Reliability, and/or the feeling of it. As I said just above, search and manage projects/Library can take time, and we are working on ways of making faster. Then efficiency can be seen as how things are accessible. Point taken, but I can't tell if and when we can propose a better way.

For your two late proposals, we may come with convenient solutions in the future, but for now, you can easily, simply, copy your resources folder into the Library by hand, using your computer's explorer. You know of course that you can choose the Library location via the Preferences right? On installation, or more after deleting the Preferences, it is definitely wrong that Live 6 asks you for a new folder to install the Library without asking you if you want to select an existing one. That is worked on.

@MR Coogs - thanks for the constructive one. There can be a squirk in the search function, and that is also worked on. It helps for now to enable 'fully rescan folders' though it could take more time. As for the 'candidate thing', what does not work for you? Once multiple candidates have been found for a missing sample, click its hotswap button, choose which candidate works better for you (by either looking at the path or previewing it, or both) and double click on it.

@shtreimel - your problem is different, it is an installation problem. You should (and other people experiencing such behaviours) write to support as they will be able to help you.

Regards,
Amaury
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Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:17 am

hambone1 wrote:All I know is that I was completely comfortable with 5's file management system.

It was easy, Live Clips were easy, managing my growing library of Live Clips was easy, DJ/VJ drag 'n dropping was easier, everything was easier. And I'm normally OK when it comes to learning how to use this kind of stuff, but I can't get my head around the logic (if there is any) of this mess. Perhaps if I could, it would be easier.
Hi,

I'll try not repeating myself too much. But have you tried reading through this thread, did you find any useful information?

For instance, is your clip collection all over the place on your computer, or all in one folder with a subfolder structure? If so, isn't it slightly better to be able to collect the refering samples if you want to, for a back up of the clip collection for example?

Did you try making the root folder of your clip collection a Project as suggested about 3 times here? If that does not work for you, please share the reasons why it doesn't, with us, that only would allow us to 'listen to the users'.

I urge people to:
-read chapter 5 of the Live 6 manual
-read lessons and the 'tell me more links' in the File manager
-read through this thread as I believe it can help you if you want to understand or at least be able to work with what you have now.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:24 am

rikhyray wrote:3 days and no answer from Amaury for very simple question, "is there any way to define where recorded goes other then Live 6 mega trash bin".
The idea of having another Library (Library for every single project/song) is ridiculous, would mean changing the Library path ( and remembering to do it) while changing from song to song.
Additionally, the file Manager freezes, does not detect samples despite selecting the folder where they are. It is absolutely stupid because meanwhile you could have done by hand 10 times manually. Live disappeared once completely when clicked on delete unused sample.
I would really appreciate some answer from Ableton when that montrous bug will be fixed, if at all and approximately direction.
It is a matter of finding temporary ( how temporary ?) solution or changing my main music application.
It would be great to know so accordingly adjust myself somehow,
I cannot really afford to keep betatesting, have to do my work too which with Live 6 became almost impossible.
Was replying while you wee writing this message. Recordings in Live 6 go to a folder called 'recordings' which is inside your Project folder. In Live 5 it went to a *myset* sounds along with all other files, frozen etc...

The idea is not to have an infinite number of Libraries, the idea is to allow users to have custom data folders, where they keep the files they use most of the time and never want to include in their projects, so they need to be identified in a certain way.

If you find a bug and want it corrected, then report it in intelligible language providing ways to reproduce and/or your log file, or at least a clear description of what happend. Do that in the right place: send it to the support team.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:26 am

G'day Amaury,

I have to agree with kevin in that Live 5's system was much better. It was simple and made sense.

The reason why you're not getting specific feedback is because many of us are trying to help you guys figure out where the issues are but the fundamental system is flawed resulting in a lack of useful analysis.

The content concepts are cool but I feel that you guys overshot it when it comes to usability.

Someone mentioned before that you're imposing a whole new paradigm on people which is not in line with the paradigms that software and OS'es follow.

The moment that your file management is disassociated with actions you make within the confines of the browser, the paradigm is broken.

The file management stuff should do the following:

Help identify missing samples and locate them without any fuss.. just match the file names or say 'found x matches choose one'.

It should also help identify the location(s) of a particular piece of media within the project file showing its position on the timeline and whatnot and let you relink it with some other media.

I see that none of the basic points of a file management system in an audio program have not been met and yet a whole new illogical system has been imposed which has nothing to do with how anyone actually uses their files and media outside of the content producers.

My last point is that if it takes hardened users 7 pages of confusion, what is a computer newbie going to do?

Sometimes you need to step back to move forward.

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:27 am

I know all there is to know about the file management system.

That doesn't change the fact that managing projects around 1gb takes AGES.

Though its probably more about the amount of files then the size. Cause i get it when managing a 100mb project with a thousand samples too.

Also. Once the project manager has been used. I need to restart Live. Because if i don't. Everything takes 2 seconds longer in Live. Even adding tracks.

I can make you a video. But you might as well get a beachball and spin it around the room. The same thing happens on my screen.

Wonna verify the behaviour?
Make a (current) project with a few EIC presets and try to pack em.
Welcome to my nightmare :lol:

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:38 am

rikhyray wrote:3 days and no answer from Amaury for very simple question, "is there any way to define where recorded goes other then Live 6 mega trash bin".
The idea of having another Library (Library for every single project/song) is ridiculous, would mean changing the Library path ( and remembering to do it) while changing from song to song.
Additionally, the file Manager freezes, does not detect samples despite selecting the folder where they are. It is absolutely stupid because meanwhile you could have done by hand 10 times manually. Live disappeared once completely when clicked on delete unused sample.
I would really appreciate some answer from Ableton when that montrous bug will be fixed, if at all and approximately direction.
It is a matter of finding temporary ( how temporary ?) solution or changing my main music application.
It would be great to know so accordingly adjust myself somehow,
I cannot really afford to keep betatesting, have to do my work too which with Live 6 became almost impossible.
Was replying while you wee writing this message. Recordings in Live 6 go to a folder called 'recordings' which is inside your Project folder. In Live 5 it went to a *myset* sounds along with all other files, frozen etc...

The idea is not to have an infinite number of Libraries, the idea is to allow users to have custom data folders, where they keep the files they use most of the time and never want to include in their projects, so they need to be identified in a certain way.

If you find a bug and want it corrected, then report it in intelligible language providing ways to reproduce and/or your log file, or at least a clear description of what happend. Do that in the right place: send it to the support team.

Regards,
Amaury
Last edited by Amaury on Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ableton Product Team

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:45 am

sweetjesus wrote:G'day Amaury,

I have to agree with kevin in that Live 5's system was much better. It was simple and made sense.

The reason why you're not getting specific feedback is because many of us are trying to help you guys figure out where the issues are but the fundamental system is flawed resulting in a lack of useful analysis.

The content concepts are cool but I feel that you guys overshot it when it comes to usability.

Someone mentioned before that you're imposing a whole new paradigm on people which is not in line with the paradigms that software and OS'es follow.

The moment that your file management is disassociated with actions you make within the confines of the browser, the paradigm is broken.

The file management stuff should do the following:

Help identify missing samples and locate them without any fuss.. just match the file names or say 'found x matches choose one'.

It should also help identify the location(s) of a particular piece of media within the project file showing its position on the timeline and whatnot and let you relink it with some other media.

I see that none of the basic points of a file management system in an audio program have not been met and yet a whole new illogical system has been imposed which has nothing to do with how anyone actually uses their files and media outside of the content producers.

My last point is that if it takes hardened users 7 pages of confusion, what is a computer newbie going to do?

Sometimes you need to step back to move forward.
G'day too,
Help identify missing samples and locate them without any fuss.. just match the file names or say 'found x matches choose one'.
Isn't it what happens? What is not there? A pop-up window? Maybe I misunderstand you. But my manual says, that upon search, if there is one match found, the file is automatically replaced, if there are many, choose one and double click on it. Is it that there are too many clicks?
The reason why you're not getting specific feedback is because many of us are trying to help you guys figure out where the issues are but the fundamental system is flawed resulting in a lack of useful analysis.
Well, that's your take on it. I would say that 50% of the stuff posted by users was useful. the rest is complains. Again that's fine, but adds to the confusion and gives less chances to dig any useful info.
My last point is that if it takes hardened users 7 pages of confusion, what is a computer newbie going to do?
For the reasons mentioned above, and because I wrote half of it, 7 pages seems to me quite reasonable.

Your points and wishes are taken in account, but tell me, from your original complains, did you find anything useful in the solutions I tried to point out? or?

best,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:10 pm

I'll probably finish by saying that I started participating this thread so actively to help out people that seemed confused and not aware of ways of doing things with the actual system.
I hope some found their ways. other matters should be posted in the right sections: bugs in the bugs&problems section, and wishes in the Feature Wishlist section.

best regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:35 pm

Amaury wrote:
sweetjesus wrote:G'day Amaury,

I have to agree with kevin in that Live 5's system was much better. It was simple and made sense.

The reason why you're not getting specific feedback is because many of us are trying to help you guys figure out where the issues are but the fundamental system is flawed resulting in a lack of useful analysis.

The content concepts are cool but I feel that you guys overshot it when it comes to usability.

Someone mentioned before that you're imposing a whole new paradigm on people which is not in line with the paradigms that software and OS'es follow.

The moment that your file management is disassociated with actions you make within the confines of the browser, the paradigm is broken.

The file management stuff should do the following:

Help identify missing samples and locate them without any fuss.. just match the file names or say 'found x matches choose one'.

It should also help identify the location(s) of a particular piece of media within the project file showing its position on the timeline and whatnot and let you relink it with some other media.

I see that none of the basic points of a file management system in an audio program have not been met and yet a whole new illogical system has been imposed which has nothing to do with how anyone actually uses their files and media outside of the content producers.

My last point is that if it takes hardened users 7 pages of confusion, what is a computer newbie going to do?

Sometimes you need to step back to move forward.
G'day too,
Help identify missing samples and locate them without any fuss.. just match the file names or say 'found x matches choose one'.
Isn't it what happens? What is not there? A pop-up window? Maybe I misunderstand you. But my manual says, that upon search, if there is one match found, the file is automatically replaced, if there are many, choose one and double click on it. Is it that there are too many clicks?
The reason why you're not getting specific feedback is because many of us are trying to help you guys figure out where the issues are but the fundamental system is flawed resulting in a lack of useful analysis.
Well, that's your take on it. I would say that 50% of the stuff posted by users was useful. the rest is complains. Again that's fine, but adds to the confusion and gives less chances to dig any useful info.
My last point is that if it takes hardened users 7 pages of confusion, what is a computer newbie going to do?
For the reasons mentioned above, and because I wrote half of it, 7 pages seems to me quite reasonable.

Your points and wishes are taken in account, but tell me, from your original complains, did you find anything useful in the solutions I tried to point out? or?

best,
Amaury
i haven't been able to achieve any 'simplification' because of a problem i encountered along the way... http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59349

this resulted in more hand picking and then at the same time reluctantly having to learn that material recorded with punch in/out isnt trauncated and the punch in/out only represents that clips braces within the context of the arrangement.... once again i would hate to be a new user having to go through any of this...

rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:06 pm

Amaury, I appreciate your efforts. I feel, 2 days given exclusively to file management by user who is not a beginner ( use Live for past 3 years 6-16 hours daily) without successful results does not really indicate that the user is not up to the standards. Well, even so, and I happened to be intellectually challenged and thus failing the superior level of new file management system even retarded user who paid for the software has some at least moral if not legal right to expect it to work in some way at least close to the industry standards. My only humble wish is to make the software usable for me in some way or the other. It is standard by not only audio applications and not any luxury.

I repeated the same question many a times and still waiting for the answer. Is there a way to have currently recorded audio go into user defined recognizable folder and not "hold it all" that includes everything from every song.
Is your only solution creating multiple instances of Libraries and resetting preference path manually for any song that I work on ?
I am not expecting any advanced , sophisticated system like of Pro tools just basic minimum- I start a project/song whatever you call it> define where the files are to be stored- not thrown in some kind of temp folder with everything else

Now regarding the management system.
I followed all your instructions and the manual, There are too many errors both in searching process ( getting different results for the same thing) and what follows ( managing).
I will not recommend anyone deleting what comes as result for search for unused files. I did it but then checked every song located in Live Library (no room for error I have only one Library) and there were samples missing, I was carefull enough- prepared for the worst- and found them in trash bin and restored them.
Regarding 2 G limit I understand the reason, but you should write it clearly in the manual it is not obvious in any way and having more then 2 G big projects is nothing rare. Anyway it is nice extra, but honestly I could live without Live packs as I lived till version y6, it is nice but not necessary. Handling audio is. As a professional I have to be practical, when something does not work, I find another way but must stick to reliable, like Novations automapping and all their products, fantastic but not reliable so I get rid of it and look for simpler but reliable solution. Here I can still use my own brain and manage my computer, my music, my files, so if Live Management System will work or not, wont be much of my concerns, I have to do my work and will proceed the ways that are operational. It might be seen as some luxury I could live without.
But basic handling of audio, where and how it is stored is no luxury , simply basic functionality, and that has to work in reliable, manageable way, preferably close to the standards set in this line for past 20 years.


I have to proceed with my work and that most basic is to know "where do my takes go" and how to mange them by myself since the current management system cannot handle it.
General bin with all takes ever recorded cannot be practical since in few days it grows to hundreds and in weeks to thousands and cannot be manageable.
Is there any solution for now other then using other application to recorded and then drag audio into Live ?

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