acoustic vs electronic

[ze2be]

I cant help to feel that acoustic instruments are more expressive then electronic, and ive been thinking for a while how to impliment this into electronic instruments. A synth drum never sounds as expressive as a real drum playd. Not talking about multi samples of acoustic drums, but electric drums. Applies to synths just as well..

You could have things happening on the velocity pressure. The tone could be slightly pitched, and the sound more snappy and distorted as you hit it harder.

Any thoughts/ideas on this?

[sebovzeoueb]

I quite like to use the non expressiveness of electronic instruments to make "machine music"... Otherwise yeah, there are always velocity effects, also just playing stuff in rather than programming it can help (turning off record quantisation obviously).

[ze2be]

I quite like to use the non expressiveness of electronic instruments to make "machine music"... Otherwise yeah, there are always velocity effects, also just playing stuff in rather than programming it can help (turning off record quantisation obviously).

Yup, that is true. But I find that it sounds a bit akward with very static machine drums. But its definitivly cool to drum electronic without quantisation!

Do you have any working tips on velocity layers in live? Say, with a synth.
Some synths can be programed internaly for this task, but usualy you cant spesify fx on the areas of the velocity lenght.

Would be nice to have aeras of the velocity fade inn and out fx etc. Could probably do it with racks and makros?

[Nod]

I cant help to feel that acoustic instruments are more expressive then electronic, and ive been thinking for a while how to impliment this into electronic instruments. A synth drum never sounds as expressive as a real drum playd. Not talking about multi samples of acoustic drums, but electric drums. Applies to synths just as well..You could have things happening on the velocity pressure. The tone could be slightly pitched, and the sound more snappy and distorted as you hit it harder. Any thoughts/ideas on this?

You're pretty much on the nail with your last few suggestions. Programming a degree of 'randomness' can be a real bitch to get right - especially given that so many ears are now accustomed and accepting of hearing the same sample, the same way, 1000 times in a track.

One thing I'll generally do with a snare or hat, as an example, is make 5-6 versions all with very slightl different tunings. Use the lower to normal pitches randomly during a verse/quiet section and then switch to the normal to higher pitches when the track needs a bit of 'push' - along with pulling the triggers ever so slightly ahead of the beat. Basically exactly what a real drummer does in an instant - minus the typical drooling, wailing & general insanity that is intrinsic in the species

[ze2be]

I cant help to feel that acoustic instruments are more expressive then electronic, and ive been thinking for a while how to impliment this into electronic instruments. A synth drum never sounds as expressive as a real drum playd. Not talking about multi samples of acoustic drums, but electric drums. Applies to synths just as well..You could have things happening on the velocity pressure. The tone could be slightly pitched, and the sound more snappy and distorted as you hit it harder. Any thoughts/ideas on this?

You're pretty much on the nail with your last few suggestions. Programming a degree of 'randomness' can be a real bitch to get right - especially given that so many ears are now accustomed and accepting of hearing the same sample, the same way, 1000 times in a track.

One thing I'll generally do with a snare or hat, as an example, is make 5-6 versions all with very slightl different tunings. Use the lower to normal pitches randomly during a verse/quiet section and then switch to the normal to higher pitches when the track needs a bit of 'push' - along with pulling the triggers ever so slightly ahead of the beat. Basically exactly what a real drummer does in an instant - minus the typical drooling, wailing & general insanity that is intrinsic in the species

yeah. For drums i guess something like battery would do the trick? Or maybe Sampler. Dont have Sampler, but I have an old Battery licence I could upgrade..

For now, ive been in comfort with the simplicity of simpler and impulse.

Layering drum samples is a good idea, but it is still a bit static though. Id have a joystic with distortion, filter, and other fx to use with it in that case. But im thinking it would be smoother with some sort of velocity dry/wet system.

Dont like to much randomness actualy! Rather have the randomnes happen with my mistakes, as you said! I miss that thing in electronic music!

[hacktheplanet]

If you think that electronic instruments aren't expressive, I'd invite you to turn the knobs on your synth.

[Johnisfaster]

you're forgetting acoustic environment. velocity and pitch changes of course when a real instrument is struck harder but the acoustic environment actually reacts differently to each hit as well in ways that reverbs aren't going to be able to simulate accurately.

try running your sounds through speakers and recording them back in from a few feet a way.

[Nod]

yeah. For drums i guess something like battery would do the trick? Or maybe Sampler. Dont have Sampler, but I have an old Battery licence I could upgrade..For now, ive been in comfort with the simplicity of simpler and impulse.

As I don't have any experience with Sampler I'd go with Battery (seeing as you already have some kind of licence) as it's actually designed from the ground up to do, at least with drums, what you want.

Layering drum samples is a good idea, but it is still a bit static though. Id have a joystic with distortion, filter, and other fx to use with it in that case. But im thinking it would be smoother with some sort of velocity dry/wet system.

The case I mentioned above was more a subtle technique for achieving a degree of acoustic realism using electronic means - having each hit slightly different from the one preceding or the one after does make for a more interesting sound. Do like your suggestion tho' - some kind of 'threshold' setting (velocity/frequency etc) for the effect to kick in, with randomisation options post signals that peek over it, would be cool. Or even (wishlist) multiple targetted LFO's across various sends that the Abe's kindly include in Live 7

Dont like to much randomness actualy! Rather have the randomnes happen with my mistakes, as you said! I miss that thing in electronic music!

Control and/or the lack of it can both be useful in both acoustic & electronic - as one slight example of the latter check out these:

http://www.servovalve.org/machines/index.html

[Angstrom]

yes, I agree with the core point that acoustic instruments are more easily articulated. whether its tapping on the sound board, rolling the heel of your hand onto the bridge (of a guitar) playing higher up the string to emphasise different harmonics.

saying that knobs can achieve the same thing, well, I'm sorry I don't think so.

to control per-note damping, bending, slides and harmonic content in real time would require a whole slew of dials to be turned ... while your hands are already busy playing notes. The key with acoustic instruments is your hands produce that articulation while playing the notes.

Anyway,

what I have started doing is making instruments out of junk, with pickups on, or contact mikes. This means I can re-arrange the physical components.

I then make either racks in Live, or VST instruments - which modify that sound or interact with it.
EG: I made a slide guitar thing which feeds into some resonation VSTi that sends the output back to the instrument to produce feedback. I can create sustaining notes and chordal structures. I can use footpedals to modify the sound of the vst.

I'm finding it hard to integrate that approach into my more 'song' based music, but it's damn fun to just piss about with

[rikhyray]

The whole matter is more complex then some randomness. Artistic expression of any kind is intentional, how accurate it might be depend on the talent and training of the artists and instrument is nothing else then instrument to realize the inner image.
Plywood violin/guitar or plastic badly tuned drums, played by a monkey or squirrel wont be more expressive then Joe Zawinul or Herbie playing Nordlead just because the acoustic is more expressive per se.
What is important in case of electronic instruments is how the hardware allows for more sonic option through dynamics, use of aftertouch, bend wheel etc. Good synth might be more expressive then piano or harpsichord
In case of drums things like Reason Drum Kits might be better then lousy drums played by unexperienced drummer recorded in lousy room with lousy mics. IRDK and similar softwares allow is almost unlimited post possibilities through choice of mics, drums etc, etc.
The electronic world is not that different then acoustic- cheap shit will always be cheap shit. Like guitar or violin are combination of the material and the luthiers skills. Same with electronic- components, the desigenrs talent and the time spend, all that add to costs.
Virus TI or Clavia G2 are not cheap but anyone who played them knows how expressiive they are compared to some Behringer or M audio keys with cheap software. .
Unfortunately people are not ready to pay that much for quality of electronic as for the acoustic instruments. That is why probably the most expressive instruments like Korg Wavedrum or Yamaha VL were dropped by the companies and became nearly impossible to get. I have seen Jack deJohnnete playing Wavedrum that was not any less expressive then his Sonors.

[Lo-Fi Massahkah]

whether its tapping on the sound board, rolling the heel of your hand onto the bridge (of a guitar) playing higher up the string to emphasise different harmonics.

saying that knobs can achieve the same thing, well, I'm sorry I don't think so.

Macros?

-M

[Angstrom]

mmm, I dont know, dials require an opposing thumb - so if I am playing a chord on a keyboard with one hand that only means one remaining thumb.

The idea that you can map a single macro to 20%-80% filter cutoff, 10%-22% waveshape, 50% - 60% resonation is good, but turning that dial will always produce the same ratio of results, a range of the above parameters.
It isn't the same as the immediate freedom of expression available from just lifting a finger of the fret a little, or deciding to play higher up the fretboard, that comes almost intuitively and on the spur of the moment. I dont have time to stop and whip up a macro or program a footpedal switched 'fret buzz' layer.

I cant see where there's an argument here - I spend hours and hours either altering envelopes slightly, or making a whole new VST to acheive some nuanced performance that could have been done and dusted by a good player with a responsive instrument.

I'm not saying electronic instruments aren't capable of expression, I'm saying that knobs aren't the ideal medium for it.

I agree about the Wavedrum, that was a good idea. And I nearly like that Continuum Fingerboard. Also, frankly, anyone who has bought a Lemur has already admitted that knob interfaces aren't where it's at!

but still, with a Lemur, that sense of tactile feedback is missing... Unless this coming update is a rumble pack!

[Lazos]

For me, the obvious route is a combination of electronic and acoustic instruments. My background is as an acoustic string player and acoustic percussionist, and I've always felt the desire to combine both worlds. Additionally, I think techniques such as velocity randomization/switching, utilizing macros, etc. are great too. Electronic instruments require talent and skill to compose and perform with (well) just like acoustic instruments (to me that's a given).

[ze2be]

If you think that electronic instruments aren't expressive, I'd invite you to turn the knobs on your synth.

Oh, I do nothing else!

[ze2be]

(wishlist) multiple targetted LFO's across various sends that the Abe's kindly include in Live 7

----

Control and/or the lack of it can both be useful in both acoustic & electronic - as one slight example of the latter check out these:

http://www.servovalve.org/machines/index.html

Ableton midi lfo plugs would be great yes, is on my wishlist too!

hmm, dont understand what to doo at that link! What is it?