OT: electroacoustic composition: more thoughts...

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.

Is electroacoustic music the last frontier?

1. Yes captain, it certainly is...plot a course to the heart of the sun!
4
29%
2. I think it's pretty cool, but can I jump ship when we get as far as Mars please?
3
21%
3. Meh...it's ok, but why does it all sound like clicks and beeps?
2
14%
4. No, it's the last refuge of egg-heads and unshaven weirdos who are trying to dodge getting a proper job forever!
5
36%
 
Total votes: 14

evernaut
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:55 am
Location: Jorvik
Contact:

OT: electroacoustic composition: more thoughts...

Post by evernaut » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:09 pm

I posted here about a year ago to invite some discussion regarding this strange little corner of the avant-garde music making world and, as all good Ableton threads do, it descended into arguments and idiotic comments...but anyway...

Since then, I've been hard at work doing a masters degree covering all aspects of music technology - including EAM - and my thoughts on the subject have changed somewhat. Previously, I was trying to discover whether this kind of largely academic music was really more concept than content, and although the 'process' involved in creating these pieces was often intriguing and stimulating, the results were sometimes..well...rubbish.

Now I still lean towards thinking that there's some of it that's just unlistenable crap designed to satisfy the increasing need to be as weird as possible for the sake of it - but I've found some truly astonishing stuff too...namely, Ryoji Ikeda, Carston Nicolai, Francisco Lopez, Chris Watson and Kim Cascone.

They have managed to make me listen to music in a fresh and vital way, and open the door for my own work too.

I now also think that it's high time that there was more interaction between the academic world and the commercial realm - there are guys I know making all sorts of very cool experimental plugins and controllers, and making very brave new music - but these often stay in project files and never see the light of day...whilst there's a whole world of new computer music artists who I'm sure would love to utilise/listen to them.

So - any thoughts? Any of you guys stray into these uncharted waters? Or do you think it's the Emperor's New Clothes for 21st century electronic music?



Oh - and you're all twats btw. Thought I'd get that in early doors...

Michael-SW
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:05 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Post by Michael-SW » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:05 pm

There is some very listenable EAM. And there are a lot of stuff that bores me to tears.

Playing at an EAM outdoor festival tomorrow wednesday in Stockholm, Sweden BTW. Anyone in the vicinity is welcome to drop by! Långholmens Friluftsteater, 12 pm to 6 pm approx. PM me if you want more details.

(Sorry for the semi-hijack... :) )

beats me
Posts: 23319
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Post by beats me » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:14 pm

I'm at work right now so I can't look up any of your examples but I've never even heard of the genre before. All genres have some kind of formula to build on, so what's the basic formula behind this genre? From what you described you make it sound like it's make songs that aren't musical in any form.

Michael-SW
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:05 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Post by Michael-SW » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:23 pm

EAM is "electronic art music". It commonly isn't conventionally musical in any form: no tonality, no rythm. (Even though there are lots of exceptions of course).

This article will give you some basics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroacoustic_music

beats me
Posts: 23319
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Post by beats me » Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:02 pm

I'll have to check out some of your examples because I'm not sure how you would judge or compare one song to another if there isn't really anything musical about it. Plus, given the basic definition it doesn't sound like it would be all that hard to make.

apalomba
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:33 pm

Post by apalomba » Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:33 pm

Actually it is not hard to make at all. It is just hard to come up with
something that is really meaningful. EAM is all about composing with form
and spectrum. The language of the notes, what we call music, is a separate
thing. It can be tonal or atonal or have no musical language at all. I would
say EAM is the cutting edge of future music development. That is where the
newest synthesis techniques are discovered, they then trickle down to more
mainstream forms of music.

beats me
Posts: 23319
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Post by beats me » Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:45 pm

I still have to listen to it later but it does intrigue me and I am sure at some point I would probably ask people that have been paying attention to EAM to show good and bad examples of the music and based on what?

Who knows. Maybe I'll hear it for the first time and just get it.

Michael-SW
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:05 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Post by Michael-SW » Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:47 pm

beats me wrote:I'll have to check out some of your examples because I'm not sure how you would judge or compare one song to another if there isn't really anything musical about it. Plus, given the basic definition it doesn't sound like it would be all that hard to make.
Of course you could mix some random sounds together and label the result "EAM". No one could contradict you. Much in the same way you could randomly dab some paint on a canvas and call it modern art. But in neither case would the result be very interesting.

The label is hardly the point. What matters is the impact on the listener. As always with music.

Edit: EAM is usually "hard" listening. You need to train your ears (or rather untrain them) since much of what we associate with music isn't there. But so is much of modern instrumental art music ("modern classical music" - strange word).

steff3
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:16 am

Post by steff3 » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:07 pm

hmmm, what is electro-acoustic music (EAM) for you? Kim Cascone? Well, do not know. EAM for me is serial music, musique concrète and John Cage and co. Stuff from IRCAM, Dartmouth, etc.

I often find that they buried themselves in the past. Often I hear stuff that was interesting in the 80ties but today does not make me go wow. IRCAM is still pretty much Pierre Boulez from the 80ties with technology from today. It is funny, we often sit in those concerts having to protect our ears (well, at least the few that did not already damage them anyways) -they always say that EAM freed the composer from the restrictions of the music instruments - well, but as music instrument manufacturers most of the ones I heard they are not very skill in doing that :)
To me, sometimes there is great stuff, but often ... well, sounds like music for the dead ones.

but that is just my 2€cents
best

evernaut
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:55 am
Location: Jorvik
Contact:

Post by evernaut » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:04 pm

steff3 wrote:

EAM for me is serial music, musique concrète and John Cage and co. Stuff from IRCAM, Dartmouth, etc.
Well, that's possibly why you think it's music for dead people...all the artists you cite have paved the way, sure...but things have moved on.

Here's a clip of one of my absolute faves, Ryoji Ikeda - a good example of his style & use of digital errors and hardware failure noises. Cool home-made vid too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S_2r0J7bHo

I'll try & stick up some more free examples of truly great EAM material soon.

evernaut
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:55 am
Location: Jorvik
Contact:

Post by evernaut » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:15 pm

apalomba wrote: EAM is.... where the
newest synthesis techniques are discovered, they then trickle down to more
mainstream forms of music.
This is precisely what happens - but I think we should think about giving the whole thing a shot in the arm and turn the trickle into a torrent.

conny
Posts: 3237
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by conny » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:27 pm

EAM is part of my evolvement in Live etc.
A guy I like is Gregory Whitehead
http://mediamogul.seas.upenn.edu/pennso ... s_1987.mp3

Blending sound, talk, synthesis etc into a new composition.
Enjoy

// C
Last edited by conny on Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PC Laptop Acer, XP Home SP2, build in crappy sound card.
Bleeps and Blops!
http://bluemoose.greatnow.com/

conny
Posts: 3237
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by conny » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:44 pm

Öyvind Fahlström, early Swedish EAM hero.

http://www.ubu.com/sound/fahlstrom.html

// C
PC Laptop Acer, XP Home SP2, build in crappy sound card.
Bleeps and Blops!
http://bluemoose.greatnow.com/

TrierMusic
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 5:05 pm
Location: Germany

Post by TrierMusic » Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:47 pm

Well thanks all, I just got turned on to something new today!

noisetonepause
Posts: 4938
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
Location: Sticks and stones

Post by noisetonepause » Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:26 pm

Michael-SW wrote:Much in the same way you could randomly dab some paint on a canvas and call it modern art. But in neither case would the result be very interesting.
I disagree.

I was writing an essay a few weeks ago, which involved a lot of late nights. I couldn't focus with 'music' with structure, much less vocals, on but I didn't like the silence either, so I took this ace little Max patch, a four voice FM synth/sequencer, which has a random setting which basically randomises the tone and the sequence every bar, set it to 30 BPM and hit play... I listened to that for hours and hours for several days. It would move between klangs and blonks, to minimal DX7-piano-ish melodies, to weird percussive patterns and noise... It made a very nice backdrop, and I don't really know what to call it, but it was definitely musical in some sense, and often very interesting noises and tunes, too... even though it was completely random, computer generated and without form.

...

Paws
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

Post Reply