OT: Michael Moore's Sicko

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M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:23 pm

Personally, I agree with government paid healthcare, but there are two conditions that Canada isn't meeting in our case;

1. The government can't have a monopoly, or it causes ineffeciency (as is the case with all monopolies). Therefore citizens must be free to purchase private procedures, or pay for supplemental private insurance.

2. The government shouldn't pay for self-inflicted conditions. The government should not deny treatment, but should bill patients for the cost of treatment to remedy self-inflicted conditions.

For #2, why should joe citizen pay for sally to get her head reconstructed when she was the one who chose to rip down the highway on a motorcycle at 180 km/h with no helmet? Why should joe citizen pay for billy to get his liver replaced after 25 years of substance abuse?

People counter that "who's to judge" to my second point. Well, doctors. Every doctor, when billing the government, should have a tick-box at the bottom of the form that says "this patient caused his/her own condition". Maybe put in a percentage value so you can say a patient is partially at fault (just like police reports for accidents). Then, it's up to the patient to appeal this decision. I would be that the money recovered from idiots (in the form of witholding income tax returns) would easily pay for a single level, comprehensive review and appeal system, leaving plenty left over to take care of other aspects of our health care system.

My $0.02

beats me
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Post by beats me » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:19 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:Personally, I agree with government paid healthcare, but there are two conditions that Canada isn't meeting in our case;

1. The government can't have a monopoly, or it causes ineffeciency (as is the case with all monopolies). Therefore citizens must be free to purchase private procedures, or pay for supplemental private insurance.

2. The government shouldn't pay for self-inflicted conditions. The government should not deny treatment, but should bill patients for the cost of treatment to remedy self-inflicted conditions.

For #2, why should joe citizen pay for sally to get her head reconstructed when she was the one who chose to rip down the highway on a motorcycle at 180 km/h with no helmet? Why should joe citizen pay for billy to get his liver replaced after 25 years of substance abuse?

People counter that "who's to judge" to my second point. Well, doctors. Every doctor, when billing the government, should have a tick-box at the bottom of the form that says "this patient caused his/her own condition". Maybe put in a percentage value so you can say a patient is partially at fault (just like police reports for accidents). Then, it's up to the patient to appeal this decision. I would be that the money recovered from idiots (in the form of witholding income tax returns) would easily pay for a single level, comprehensive review and appeal system, leaving plenty left over to take care of other aspects of our health care system.

My $0.02
I agree with you on #2 to an extent but your solution is the exact problem we have with private insurance companies right now. Aside from the obvious examples of people being at blame for their own medical problems, insurance companies currently dig deep into your history to get out of paying. If you put that in the government's hands they already have the ablity to dig even deeper into your history so that they can refuse payment.

Also, I don't have this well thought out but I think there should also be some kind of credit system when it comes to insurance. Let's say I have insurance that either my company, myself, or the government pays for over the course or let's say 5 years and not once did I use it. Then I lose the insurance because of layoffs or something like that. 2 months later I have some medical emergency and I am totally fucked because I no longer have insurance and all those 5 years of payments didn't get me shit. I'm not saying it needs to cover fully what you paid out but there should be some percentage that sits in the "bank" for when these things happen.

fortycoats
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Post by fortycoats » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:48 pm

watched this last night,
his point is fairly hard to argue with

mental that drug companys can charge what they like in the U.S.
one woman finds out the inhaler she has been paying 120$ for retails for 5 cents in cuba

beats me
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Post by beats me » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:19 pm

I know you can find anything on the Internet but can those of you who either saw it or are going to watch it tonight explain where you are finding it if it's not even scheduled to be released in theaters until the end of this month?

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:26 pm

beats me wrote:I know you can find anything on the Internet but can those of you who either saw it or are going to watch it tonight explain where you are finding it if it's not even scheduled to be released in theaters until the end of this month?
I don't know of any but there are press screenings that occur weeks before a movie's released. Also consider that there are industry people on this forum, in all levels of every audio industry.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

tacvbo83
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Post by tacvbo83 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:51 am

Wishbone wrote:Anyways, I don't get why people think that universal health care is "free". Just because you didnt pay for it directly doesnt mean it was free. There's nothing free about free health care, it all comes out of the taxpayers pockets. It just is much less efficient, and ends up costing more.

I rather pay more taxes for universal healthcare, education, and building up cities without poverty. We actually pay enough taxes but as you can see if you watch the film or if you have any sense of logic(and no, I dont mean Logic Pro : )), the money is being wasted the wrong way and also given to the friends of politicians thru corruption. Having a regressive tax system in the US does not help at all. Most politicians (especially Republicans, <-how strange) fight constantly for a regresive tax system because they are selfish religious church going human beings. If you were born into a rich family your money makes more money so that is what you work for. If you are born into a poor family, good luck buddy. (it is great seeing people rise from the ground up and becoming succesful in this type of system, I am happy for them although dislike some when they then become religious after that and say "I have been blessed"...WTF? , so God likes you and not me....COMMON!....anyways)

My advice for everyone is to travel to other places either being here in the states or especially to a foreign country. You will learn a lot and your vision from what you are being told constantly on tv will probably change. Too bad gas prices are ridiculous, forcing people to stay at home and just keep going to their 8-5 job constantly to bearly make it.

beats me
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Post by beats me » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:57 am

tacvbo83 wrote:
Wishbone wrote:Anyways, I don't get why people think that universal health care is "free". Just because you didnt pay for it directly doesnt mean it was free. There's nothing free about free health care, it all comes out of the taxpayers pockets. It just is much less efficient, and ends up costing more.

I rather pay more taxes for universal healthcare, education, and building up cities without poverty. We actually pay enough taxes but as you can see if you watch the film or if you have any sense of logic(and no, I dont mean Logic Pro : )), the money is being wasted the wrong way and also given to the friends of politicians thru corruption. Having a regressive tax system in the US does not help at all. Most politicians (especially Republicans, <-how strange) fight constantly for a regresive tax system because they are selfish religious church going human beings. If you were born into a rich family your money makes more money so that is what you work for. If you are born into a poor family, good luck buddy. (it is great seeing people rise from the ground up and becoming succesful in this type of system, I am happy for them although hate some when they then become religious after that and say "I have been blessed"...WTF? , so God likes you and not me....COMMON!....anyways)

My advice for everyone is to travel to other places either being here in the states or especially to a foreign country. You will learn a lot and your vision from what you are being told constantly on tv will probably change. Too bad gas prices are ridiculous, forcing people to stay at home and just keep going to their 8-5 job constantly to bearly make it.
I don't have the information in front of me but they did a study a little while back and took the sum total of our tax money that is supposedly going to programs to help the poor and homeless, divided by the number of poor people (that the government is aware of), and concluded that if we just got rid of the programs and wrote the individuals a check then we wouldn't have any poor and most people would be middle class.

Which reminds me of this article....
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/u_ ... i_3_544_91

Sorry for going slightly off topic
Last edited by beats me on Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sibanger
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Post by Sibanger » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:55 am

Being an Aussie, I feel that we are lucky to have a pretty damn good health system compared to the American model.
It used to be better.
The damned conservative right winged govt has been running it down for the last 10 years, along with our education system. (Unless you can afford both private health and private education).

What's with that?

Dumb down the people over time so they will elect you again and again to keep them safe from the nasty terrorists that we are spending billions of dollars on, to stop em from killing us all.
I thought by spending the money on the health system, that it would stop the real killers getting us.
Sorry, just another lefty rant. :roll:

Wishbone
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Post by Wishbone » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:02 am

tacvbo83 wrote:
Wishbone wrote:Anyways, I don't get why people think that universal health care is "free". Just because you didnt pay for it directly doesnt mean it was free. There's nothing free about free health care, it all comes out of the taxpayers pockets. It just is much less efficient, and ends up costing more.

I rather pay more taxes for universal healthcare, education, and building up cities without poverty. We actually pay enough taxes but as you can see if you watch the film or if you have any sense of logic(and no, I dont mean Logic Pro : )), the money is being wasted the wrong way and also given to the friends of politicians thru corruption. Having a regressive tax system in the US does not help at all. Most politicians (especially Republicans, <-how strange) fight constantly for a regresive tax system because they are selfish religious church going human beings. If you were born into a rich family your money makes more money so that is what you work for. If you are born into a poor family, good luck buddy. (it is great seeing people rise from the ground up and becoming succesful in this type of system, I am happy for them although dislike some when they then become religious after that and say "I have been blessed"...WTF? , so God likes you and not me....COMMON!....anyways)

My advice for everyone is to travel to other places either being here in the states or especially to a foreign country. You will learn a lot and your vision from what you are being told constantly on tv will probably change. Too bad gas prices are ridiculous, forcing people to stay at home and just keep going to their 8-5 job constantly to bearly make it.
You are absolutely wrong, and through your ignorance, you are hurting the people you think are saving. First of all we have a PROGRESSIVE tax, the rich get charged more than the poor. And through this it creates less incentive for people to work because they will be punished. Venezula does the same thing you are talking about, and guess what their poverty rate is? Its JUST A coincidence that as Ireland became less socialist that the countries economy starting doing so well, same with the UAE, same with ours. And its just a coincidence the socialist countries are doing so poorly. When you thing along those lines "oh the govt can give the poor everything, and thats fine" you are being ignorant. There are consequences of those actions, and they include hurting the poor.

You are a leftist idiot, who thinks that all republicans are greedy selfish religious people. First of all why do you think being religious is bad. You are a disgusting ignorant individual on that count. But moreover, they understand how to truly help the poor. Having a flat tax system, is both fair, and economically benificial. THERE IS NO ECONOMIC BENIFIT FOR THE PROGRESSIVE TAX.

It is quite obvious you are simply jealous of the rich. Capitalism gives people the choice, the choice of how much money to make, where to go to school (school vouchers) and where to go for health care (private health care). You are interested in holding back the poor. Forcing them to stay in bad schools, not because of funding, but because YOU dont want to give them the choice of where to go.

Nobel Prize winning economists agree with me, jealous socialsts agree with you. Who has the bad logic? not me.

Wishbone
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Post by Wishbone » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:40 am

Its so simple to spot those that are ignorant about economics they always bring up 2 main points:

1. Capitalism hurts the poor (absolutley rediculous, I know poor that through hard work have become extremley well off. The only people that dont have a shot are those WHO ARE FORCED TO GO TO innercity GOVERNMENT schools. Instead of having a choice of where to go they are forced in that one).

2. Taxing the rich a larger percentage is perfectly fair, and has no economic consequences whatsoever.

Take a few economic courses before you start talking. You simply think you can derive all the laws of economics out of your common sense. "Tax the rich, free health care, free education" is what you say, however you realize that none of these are free, and none as fair as the free market, and none are as efficent.

If you believe in government health care in education, tell me why the government shouldn't own the food stores, and food producers. Tell me the economic difference between food and health care.

dango
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Post by dango » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:00 am

beats me wrote:I know you can find anything on the Internet but can those of you who either saw it or are going to watch it tonight explain where you are finding it if it's not even scheduled to be released in theaters until the end of this month?
check your pm

tacvbo83
Posts: 167
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Post by tacvbo83 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:44 am

Wishbone wrote:
tacvbo83 wrote:
Wishbone wrote:Anyways, I don't get why people think that universal health care is "free". Just because you didnt pay for it directly doesnt mean it was free. There's nothing free about free health care, it all comes out of the taxpayers pockets. It just is much less efficient, and ends up costing more.

I rather pay more taxes for universal healthcare, education, and building up cities without poverty. We actually pay enough taxes but as you can see if you watch the film or if you have any sense of logic(and no, I dont mean Logic Pro : )), the money is being wasted the wrong way and also given to the friends of politicians thru corruption. Having a regressive tax system in the US does not help at all. Most politicians (especially Republicans, <-how strange) fight constantly for a regresive tax system because they are selfish religious church going human beings. If you were born into a rich family your money makes more money so that is what you work for. If you are born into a poor family, good luck buddy. (it is great seeing people rise from the ground up and becoming succesful in this type of system, I am happy for them although dislike some when they then become religious after that and say "I have been blessed"...WTF? , so God likes you and not me....COMMON!....anyways)

My advice for everyone is to travel to other places either being here in the states or especially to a foreign country. You will learn a lot and your vision from what you are being told constantly on tv will probably change. Too bad gas prices are ridiculous, forcing people to stay at home and just keep going to their 8-5 job constantly to bearly make it.
You are absolutely wrong, and through your ignorance, you are hurting the people you think are saving. First of all we have a PROGRESSIVE tax, the rich get charged more than the poor. And through this it creates less incentive for people to work because they will be punished. Venezula does the same thing you are talking about, and guess what their poverty rate is? Its JUST A coincidence that as Ireland became less socialist that the countries economy starting doing so well, same with the UAE, same with ours. And its just a coincidence the socialist countries are doing so poorly. When you thing along those lines "oh the govt can give the poor everything, and thats fine" you are being ignorant. There are consequences of those actions, and they include hurting the poor.

You are a leftist idiot, who thinks that all republicans are greedy selfish religious people. First of all why do you think being religious is bad. You are a disgusting ignorant individual on that count. But moreover, they understand how to truly help the poor. Having a flat tax system, is both fair, and economically benificial. THERE IS NO ECONOMIC BENIFIT FOR THE PROGRESSIVE TAX.

It is quite obvious you are simply jealous of the rich. Capitalism gives people the choice, the choice of how much money to make, where to go to school (school vouchers) and where to go for health care (private health care). You are interested in holding back the poor. Forcing them to stay in bad schools, not because of funding, but because YOU dont want to give them the choice of where to go.

Nobel Prize winning economists agree with me, jealous socialsts agree with you. Who has the bad logic? not me.


There is a cap for taxing income.(ex. make $90,000 get taxed $6000....make $1000000000 get taxed $6000, and that is not even talking about leeways big corporations have many times on taxes courtesy of their political friends) How is that not REGRESSIVE. As much as I don't like the guy, Kerry was actually talking about that in debates where he would try to lift that tax cap a substantial amount. (knowing the kind of politician he is, probably would of not even done that if elected) You are completly wrong in assuming that I hate Republicans and Capitalism. If you read previous post, I am oppose to ANY party because I follow what I agree on, no matter what party it is. As far as Capitalism, I think it's great but has its faults which could be fixed by the government as other governments tend to do. You are calling me a socialist which I am not and will add that I do not see nothing wrong with socialist if they make their country work for them. I am obviously not jealous of the rich since I stated that many poor folks get to become rich and I am proud of them by whatever means they aquired that status. Because of my fiancial status, I am forced to go to a certain school(local) and go to a certain doctor(my cousin across the border). You may argue scholarships etc, but not even that since I would have to leave my poor family back home with a small income so I have to stay here as well. IF we were rich, of course I can move out and find the school of my dreams and not care what doctor or hospital to go to.

I hope you are rich to be saying those things because if your're not, that is just sad. If anything be happy you are well-off. Religion is bad and good in many ways but that is a completely different topic. Economist as well as politicians and probably you as well (not sure cause I don't know you) will always look out for what is best for them and their families; not others. (at least the majority of them in this country) A Nobel Prize winning economist is nothing to me as well as the Pope who is elected on a biased manner.

Sibanger
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Post by Sibanger » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:49 am

Hi Wishbone.
Just got to ask you a simple question.
Why do we have to all work so hard so we can afford to send our kids to private schools ? When both parents are working just to get a good education for their kids, it could be counter-productive in the quality of home life.
It would seem to me that lifting the standard of all education would not only be good for the future of any country, but would help those people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds to help themselves.
I'm not paying out on rich people here. It just seems to make sense to me to think this way.
Cheers

JACKAL & HYDE
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:26 am

Post by JACKAL & HYDE » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:00 am

tacvbo83 wrote:
Wishbone wrote:
tacvbo83 wrote:
I rather pay more taxes for universal healthcare, education, and building up cities without poverty. We actually pay enough taxes but as you can see if you watch the film or if you have any sense of logic(and no, I dont mean Logic Pro : )), the money is being wasted the wrong way and also given to the friends of politicians thru corruption. Having a regressive tax system in the US does not help at all. Most politicians (especially Republicans, <-how strange) fight constantly for a regresive tax system because they are selfish religious church going human beings. If you were born into a rich family your money makes more money so that is what you work for. If you are born into a poor family, good luck buddy. (it is great seeing people rise from the ground up and becoming succesful in this type of system, I am happy for them although dislike some when they then become religious after that and say "I have been blessed"...WTF? , so God likes you and not me....COMMON!....anyways)

My advice for everyone is to travel to other places either being here in the states or especially to a foreign country. You will learn a lot and your vision from what you are being told constantly on tv will probably change. Too bad gas prices are ridiculous, forcing people to stay at home and just keep going to their 8-5 job constantly to bearly make it.
You are absolutely wrong, and through your ignorance, you are hurting the people you think are saving. First of all we have a PROGRESSIVE tax, the rich get charged more than the poor. And through this it creates less incentive for people to work because they will be punished. Venezula does the same thing you are talking about, and guess what their poverty rate is? Its JUST A coincidence that as Ireland became less socialist that the countries economy starting doing so well, same with the UAE, same with ours. And its just a coincidence the socialist countries are doing so poorly. When you thing along those lines "oh the govt can give the poor everything, and thats fine" you are being ignorant. There are consequences of those actions, and they include hurting the poor.

You are a leftist idiot, who thinks that all republicans are greedy selfish religious people. First of all why do you think being religious is bad. You are a disgusting ignorant individual on that count. But moreover, they understand how to truly help the poor. Having a flat tax system, is both fair, and economically benificial. THERE IS NO ECONOMIC BENIFIT FOR THE PROGRESSIVE TAX.

It is quite obvious you are simply jealous of the rich. Capitalism gives people the choice, the choice of how much money to make, where to go to school (school vouchers) and where to go for health care (private health care). You are interested in holding back the poor. Forcing them to stay in bad schools, not because of funding, but because YOU dont want to give them the choice of where to go.

Nobel Prize winning economists agree with me, jealous socialsts agree with you. Who has the bad logic? not me.


There is a cap for taxing income.(ex. make $90,000 get taxed $6000....make $1000000000 get taxed $6000,
Where in the hell did you hear that? If you make 1 Million or more, the current Tax rate is 47% of that, not $6,000... Thats $470,000 that go toward taxes if you make that amount.

tacvbo83
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:36 am

Post by tacvbo83 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:25 am

JACKAL & HYDE wrote:
tacvbo83 wrote:
Wishbone wrote: You are absolutely wrong, and through your ignorance, you are hurting the people you think are saving. First of all we have a PROGRESSIVE tax, the rich get charged more than the poor. And through this it creates less incentive for people to work because they will be punished. Venezula does the same thing you are talking about, and guess what their poverty rate is? Its JUST A coincidence that as Ireland became less socialist that the countries economy starting doing so well, same with the UAE, same with ours. And its just a coincidence the socialist countries are doing so poorly. When you thing along those lines "oh the govt can give the poor everything, and thats fine" you are being ignorant. There are consequences of those actions, and they include hurting the poor.

You are a leftist idiot, who thinks that all republicans are greedy selfish religious people. First of all why do you think being religious is bad. You are a disgusting ignorant individual on that count. But moreover, they understand how to truly help the poor. Having a flat tax system, is both fair, and economically benificial. THERE IS NO ECONOMIC BENIFIT FOR THE PROGRESSIVE TAX.

It is quite obvious you are simply jealous of the rich. Capitalism gives people the choice, the choice of how much money to make, where to go to school (school vouchers) and where to go for health care (private health care). You are interested in holding back the poor. Forcing them to stay in bad schools, not because of funding, but because YOU dont want to give them the choice of where to go.

Nobel Prize winning economists agree with me, jealous socialsts agree with you. Who has the bad logic? not me.


There is a cap for taxing income.(ex. make $90,000 get taxed $6000....make $1000000000 get taxed $6000,
Where in the hell did you hear that? If you make 1 Million or more, the current Tax rate is 47% of that, not $6,000... Thats $470,000 that go toward taxes if you make that amount.

First of all that is an example. Not actual figures of course. I guess a better way to put it is to research payroll tax. It is progressive to a certain degree because of that cap that is put in place which is what I had previously stated. (have not followed actual figures for awhile so I don't know exact numbers at this point) Once your income goes above that cap, that is when it gets regressive. When it gets semi-progresive again is after retiring because a rich person will get the same as a poor person because they put into the tax system almost the same amount/percentage depending on what their annual income was.(percentages are divided into groups of amounts of income, little research will give you those numbers) Of course, the rich person wont even have a need for that monthly governement check but that is just the way it is and seems fair.(again, unfair becasue of overall regressive system) I guess technically you can't count corruption as regressive but it is still bad and should be considered regressive since like I said before, there are many leeways for the rich to decut the amount of money they get taxed on. Maybe it is your 47% number but only goes as far to that cap. After that, the rest of the money you get will not be taxed.

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