Do you really want VSTi support?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Post by Guest » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:56 pm

dig it, david. Agreed MBreaks--the old version will still function, so the naysayers shouldn't spoil the party for others. I'm a huge FL fan, and use it rewired to Live all the time (and used to use Reason rewired all the time until the FLRW beta came out), but that said, I often find that recording audio from REason or FL as session clips in Live live is sketchy at best. It seems like often the first beat or two of the rewired sources' audio drags, and this slow down drag gets recorded as part of the clip--yuk. This doesn't always happen, but happens enough where I've fully given up on it for the time being. This happens to me in both Reason and FL, and not with vstis. With just one nnxt in Reason with a drumkit loaded I'd often get the first beat drag while recording a session clip. Same for FL when just using FL's step seq. for drum hits--no vstis or effects. Vstis' from FL--even less reliable. I personally think that its rewires fault but I don't know. Maybe others aren't having this problem (speak up), but my system is pretty fine tuned for audio, and this behaviour seems unavoidable (but again, it doesn't happen every time).

Thus, as great as FL is, there is not yet a super-solid means of rewiring vsti's to Live and to be able to record the vsti's output as a Live session clip. I can record vst midi in FL all day and pipe it into Live no prob, but try to record it as an audio session clip and its drag city for the first beat or two. Whether its within a release of Live itself, or a secondary rewire/companion app to Live, and solid means of recording vstis into Live is needed. If it took the form of recording the midi data ala Dave's PS mock-up, I'd be very happy. Midi clips, very similar to the implementaion of of audio clips in Live, but its midi--makes perfect sense to me. It seems to make more sense to keep it midi rather than recording the vsti as audio, which is the current problem with no solid solution.

Ryan

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Post by sweetjesus » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:49 am

It's frustrating to see ideas dismissed so quickly.

- Firstly, with EnergyXTE, you load the effect as a normal effect in Live.

- Then from the website of the energyXTE software, there's a little plugin which you run from WITHIN Energy XTE and it allows you to choose which midi port to play VSTi's from.

I run this on Live 3.02 and there has been nowhere near as many stability issues as with Bidule. I think you're track+vsti's that you choose could be making your system crash.

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:24 am

I don't know if I really wanna see midi at the sequencing level in LIVE.
Here's what I think Ableton should.
Design a universal Virtual Patchbay the can route stand alone VSTi out put to any input track.
This would allow some of us to jam along with things like Lounge Lizard and the like and have loads of unquantised improvisational chops ready for further mangling in Live.
As it stands I use Project 5 - with VSTi's get a fairly decent compositional arrangement with all parts happening then export each track as audio to Adobe audtion. Edit the individual .wav files in there and then import all the tracks ,drums ,hits ,fills etc etc I need from there.
This atleast allows me to use Tassman and Reaktor quite effectively.
I would use Reason but I'm still not won over on sound quality.
I mean listen to GreenOak's Crystal and it's free - hell I'd pay for it myself and it sounds better than Reason. 9subjective I know)
Personally I'd like to see the Prop's do an uber Maelstrom on steroids that can be used on it's own myself.
Besides which Reason reminds me too much of my old hardware rigs :(...
After 15 years of working with midi racks the paradigm shift is like a breath of fresh with alot of the modelling technology out there.

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Apr 03, 2004 6:23 pm

Anonymous wrote: but that said, I often find that recording audio from REason or FL as session clips in Live live is sketchy at best. It seems like often the first beat or two of the rewired sources' audio drags, and this slow down drag gets recorded as part of the clip--yuk. This doesn't always happen, but happens enough where I've fully given up on it for the time being. This happens to me in both Reason and FL, and not with vstis. With just one nnxt in Reason with a drumkit loaded I'd often get the first beat drag while recording a session clip. Same for FL when just using FL's step seq. for drum hits--no vstis or effects. Vstis' from FL--even less reliable. I personally think that its rewires fault but I don't know. Maybe others aren't having this problem (speak up), but my system is pretty fine tuned for audio, and this behaviour seems unavoidable (but again, it doesn't happen every time).

Thus, as great as FL is, there is not yet a super-solid means of rewiring vsti's to Live and to be able to record the vsti's output as a Live session clip. I can record vst midi in FL all day and pipe it into Live no prob, but try to record it as an audio session clip and its drag city for the first beat or two. Whether its within a release of Live itself, or a secondary rewire/companion app to Live, and solid means of recording vstis into Live is needed. If it took the form of recording the midi data ala Dave's PS mock-up, I'd be very happy. Midi clips, very similar to the implementaion of of audio clips in Live, but its midi--makes perfect sense to me. It seems to make more sense to keep it midi rather than recording the vsti as audio, which is the current problem with no solid solution.

Ryan
Ryan,

are you recording with default in the prefs set with launch mode to repeat and quantisation set to more than a bar? If you do this it just records the amount you've selected in quantise and starts looping as soon as it's stopped recording - like punch in in session view.

I do this with reason and flstudio all the time with no problem and find it really quick and one of live's best features. I usually have it set to 4 bars or 8 bars anyway in case there's a 'loop glitch' or anything and just move the markers to the middle bar or 2 in the clip

live 3.0.3
reason 2.5
flstudio 4.5.1

PC laptop AMD 2200+ XP Home, 1gb ram and 7200rpm internal notebook drive

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Apr 03, 2004 6:40 pm

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if I really wanna see midi at the sequencing level in LIVE.
Here's what I think Ableton should.
Design a universal Virtual Patchbay the can route stand alone VSTi out put to any input track.
This would allow some of us to jam along with things like Lounge Lizard and the like and have loads of unquantised improvisational chops ready for further mangling in Live.
As it stands I use Project 5 - with VSTi's get a fairly decent compositional arrangement with all parts happening then export each track as audio to Adobe audtion. Edit the individual .wav files in there and then import all the tracks ,drums ,hits ,fills etc etc I need from there.
This atleast allows me to use Tassman and Reaktor quite effectively.
I would use Reason but I'm still not won over on sound quality.
I mean listen to GreenOak's Crystal and it's free - hell I'd pay for it myself and it sounds better than Reason. 9subjective I know)
Personally I'd like to see the Prop's do an uber Maelstrom on steroids that can be used on it's own myself.
Besides which Reason reminds me too much of my old hardware rigs :(...
After 15 years of working with midi racks the paradigm shift is like a breath of fresh with alot of the modelling technology out there.
totally with you on that, I hardly use reason any more, I have individual plug-ins and apps that can do pretty much everything it does better, and on top of that I can still use whatever synth or effect I like rather than having to take whatever reason gives me - I was thinking earlier about what I'd actually load reason up for now and all I could think of was the scream, but I can't even use external audio through it, so I'd have to use reason sounds through it, but then I'm sure I'll wake up one day and really feel like using it to create some sounds.

FLStudio beats it in almost every way imaginable though - vstis etc etc, full duplex, and beatslcer that integrates with the program its self.

No, If reason 3 doesn't SERIOUSLY improve it's connectability I cant see how it can survive.

Guest

Post by Guest » Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:54 am

Anonymous wrote:whoops!

try this

www.david-e.de/Live_4.jpg
Yep, this is basically how I think it should work too. I want to be able to trigger midi clips with the same method as I trigger audio clips (as different forms of loops or one-shots). In the same application. In the same session/arrangement windows. Using the same methods and the same workflow. Being able to automate VSTi-parameters as I know can automate VSTe-parameters.

I mean, it just makes such perfect sense to me..

/jah

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Post by Pitch Black » Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:20 am

My 2 cents...

I personally don't mind if there is no VSTi hosting, as long as there is MIDI. For me, using LIVE, live on stage to run external samplers, and lights, and visuals - just by being able to output a MIDI sequence stream would be the bees knees, the duck's nuts, the...(you get the picture)

For me the ability to see a Standard MIDI File (SMF) in the browser and be able to drop it onto a slot (probably a dedicated MIDI track as per David's above) and have the same incredible triggering options that I have with audio clips. This would make LIVE unbeatable in a live performance situation. If this was do-able I could wait for all other MIDI features, even basic editing.

I can make MIDI sequences in so many other apps - ok, so I have Logic Platinum, grew up with it, happy with it etc etc.

I say: build your MIDI tracks (in another app in the short term - maybe) and have LIVE as a wikkid unmatched live performance app.

which LIVE already is...preaching to the choir here

I pressed Robert, that's Herr Monolake to me, with this question/request when he was down here in NZ last year. He said Ableton were masssively aware of the want for MIDI/VSTi and the (good, healthy) debate on these pages. He said they would not implement MIDI until they could do it as seamlessly - and here's the word he used: as beautifully - as the rest of the program.

So I say we are in good hands, when they can do it, they will. And it will be goooooooood. Keep those cards and letters coming tho folks...

cheers
paddy (i mingle with the stars) :P
MBP i5 2.53GHz | OSX 10.12.6 | Live10.0.4 | Fireface800 | Push 2
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Post by nerveagent » Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:38 am

hey pitch blak did you ask him about multiple session support too? I'd want the ability to open a couple of sessions and mix between them before VSTi support.

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Post by Pitch Black » Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:18 am

no, just pushed the MIDI agenda.... :wink:

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Post by dirtystudios » Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:56 am

well, whatever happens, i for one am hella (that's right...hella) excited to see what the abletons are cooking up for the future of live. i mean damn, midi or no, this is still an amazing bit of code. does anyone else get as excited as me thinking about the possibility of features that nobody has though up yet? like midi-assignable lfo's built right in, crazy new time stretching modes, new fx (maybe some granular stuff :), some wizbang scopolicutation matrix that does cool stuff, but nobody can fully explain the physics behind it. i can't wait. anyone daydream about what version 8 or 9 will look like? no? hmmm...what was it my ex said before she slammed the door behind her?

k

Guest

Post by Guest » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:44 am

dirtystudios wrote: anyone daydream about what version 8 or 9 will look like? no? k
It'll be johnny mneumonic and minority report with soul

god knows I'm getting arthritis from using a god damn mouse for so much of my life - I wanna draw those shapes in the air and make em sing.... :wink: :lol:

David_not_logged

Post by David_not_logged » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:31 pm

wow,

some nice views and opinions on this discussion...one thing i noticed is that everyone has slightly different uses for live...some people use purely software (like me) while some people use a combination of hardware and software...the thought of triggering external instruments from live via midi never even occured to me but I guess it would make perfect sense to have that...

something that pitchblack said got me thinking...Ableton want to make sure they get it (midi) spot on before making it a feature in live...which is the right attitude...my early experiences of using midi in cubase was that it was buggy as hell...I think that having real-time midi sequencing in any application is a complicated thing to implement with 100% reliability when you take into account all the factors...the software has to do a hell of a LOT to keep everything in time and it has to handle all the data input/ouput with minimal latency...thats got to be quite tricky to get spot on, and after all, Live was initially designed for 'Live' use....the fact that it uses mainly Audio is a big contributing factor to its stability....

..but, I 'm still looking forward to the day when midi implementation is as beautiful as the rest of the program...and to be honest I'm in no real rush for it...I know when it comes it will be beautiful AND different

David

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Post by Verne Andru » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:13 pm

I vote for VSTi's in Live.

I use Live for composing and do my "mastering" stuff in SX or Logic. With native VSTi support my job of moving a composition over would be greatly enhanced. If done properly, the utility of Live would go up tremendously and it might even become a contender for serious tracking and mastering applications.

I'm still on Live 2.1.2 and am pretty comfy staying put until I see VSTi support in a subsequent rev. More and more ways to screw with clips doesn't do a thing for me.
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eman resu

Post by eman resu » Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:50 am

Why people would even think of introducing VSTi's into Live eludes me - I see no logical sense to this argument, let alone the obvious drawbacks to stability.
And why not? I could jam a few bars of a VSTi drum sampler and put it has a loop and mangle it after. What is so hard to figure out in this? A quote like your certainly eludes me. It is totally narrow minded.

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Post by serotoninsteve » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:38 am

They could leave Live like it is and make a bundle with Tracktion for using midistuff, I just hope Tracktion 2 comes out with rewire slave mode then for me it would be great and intuitive for working with the 2 apps together without overloading Live.
Greetings! 8)

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