all you IT degree types - how do you do it??

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Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:11 pm

nolus wrote:
Machinate wrote:
nolus wrote:Not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I'm talking about Agile as a branch of so called "extreme programming". (.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development)
Thank you for linking to that... very inspirational.
But managers don't like it because there is no plan as such
wouldn't that be Cowboy Coding, not Agile SD?
Agile would be a great way to work if you were working with a smallish group of really cool and gifted programmers on an interesting project.
That's what I mean - my work is centrered around small groups of highly specialized experts doing small(ish) commisioned jobs with fast turnaround(is that the right word here?)

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:11 pm

noisetonepause wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:they're both GREAT at... dealing with people, two traits NOT found in great programmers.
http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?projec ... ail=medium

:D
8O
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nolus
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Post by nolus » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:28 pm

Machinate wrote:
nolus wrote:
Machinate wrote:Thank you for linking to that... very inspirational.
wouldn't that be Cowboy Coding, not Agile SD?
Agile would be a great way to work if you were working with a smallish group of really cool and gifted programmers on an interesting project.
That's what I mean - my work is centrered around small groups of highly specialized experts doing small(ish) commisioned jobs with fast turnaround(is that the right word here?)
Got any vacancies for a UK based freelancer?
"That very perceptive of you Mr Stapleton, and rather unexpected... in a G Major"

Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:32 pm

nolus wrote:
Machinate wrote:
nolus wrote:Agile would be a great way to work if you were working with a smallish group of really cool and gifted programmers on an interesting project.
That's what I mean - my work is centrered around small groups of highly specialized experts doing small(ish) commisioned jobs with fast turnaround(is that the right word here?)
Got any vacancies for a UK based freelancer?
sry, we're just a couple of guys at this point... shoot me an email, I'll get back if/WHEN we expand :)

nolus
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Post by nolus » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:35 pm

Machinate wrote:
nolus wrote:
Machinate wrote:That's what I mean - my work is centrered around small groups of highly specialized experts doing small(ish) commisioned jobs with fast turnaround(is that the right word here?)
Got any vacancies for a UK based freelancer?
sry, we're just a couple of guys at this point... shoot me an email, I'll get back if/WHEN we expand :)
Will do.
"That very perceptive of you Mr Stapleton, and rather unexpected... in a G Major"

ultrasource
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Post by ultrasource » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:55 pm

"if you want to get into IT (fixing and setting up computers, networks, computer systems, shit like that) and work weekends and nights rebooting servers and whatnot, then follow the above advice. it's shit work. "

I opted out of a degree and went for the above ^^^. Not glamorous but I would hardly call it shit work. Shit work for me would be sitting all day long coding. It's all subjective BUT...... getting back to the point....
GET THE DEGREE!
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inmazevo
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Post by inmazevo » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:00 pm

Tone Deft wrote:^^^ good advice if you want to half ass it through life.

if you want to get into IT (fixing and setting up computers, networks, computer systems, shit like that) and work weekends and nights rebooting servers and whatnot, then follow the above advice. it's shit work.


if you want to PROGRAM and write code, problem solve and create things, you have to get a degree and go through school. NO respectable position in the real world goes to people without degrees from an acreditted school.


you can be the guys that maintain computers or be one of the guys that USE computers. your choice. 1 part work in school means 10 parts payoff in the real world for the rest of your life.

no offense intended zevo, I'm more looking out to steering forge into the best path possible than criticizing your position in life, seems like you got it worked out, but I disagree on the path.
"half ass it through life"
Offense taken.

I'm not interested in IT, or support.
I'm a developer.

To program, you need to program.
To get a job, you MIGHT need school.

Learn to program, add school, then go program.

What did I say that suggested "critisizing your position in life?"
Your response genuinely confuses me.

Learning to program, and actually programming, and having a paper that says you can program, are quite different (though related things).

Did I miss something? The OP was speaking of programming. I'm simply suggesting that you learn to do that, and then get the "world's expectations" of how you did it.
School is secondary in this field.

The best devs I've ever met have a degree, and admit its irrelevence to their career.
If your experience is different, just state it. No need to call my experience "half ass." It's not. I'm a good developer. Without any arrogance, I'm quite aware of that. School gave me, and many others, nothing but a leg into an interview.

And how is advice to learn ancilary technologies "half ass?"
To me, NOT doing this is "half ass," since if I have to work with people who don't know how to script, I'm doing half their work.

I'm happy with my advice. It's sound, and proven.
School's great, but alone, it's nothing.

Just as a curiosity:
Are we talking about IT, or developing? Two different things.
The OP was about programming.

- zevo
infinite density, zero volume

inmazevo
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Post by inmazevo » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:10 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
nolus wrote:Don't even get me started on Agile Programming.
you work/worked on Agile???!!!!! I've been using that shit for 10 years, I hate it with a passion, I feel you!! didn't Oracle buy it up?? any hope for it being worth a shit?? I'm pissed that we use it but am powerless to change it, I just deal with it. the latest version is crap, you can totally tell it was written by small groups of people who were not coordinated.
Agile is a methodology (a shitty one at that), NOT actual code.
There isn't anything for Oracle to buy. It's a concept.
NOT knowing that is... well...

I've used it for years now, and indeed think it sucks. But it's not code. It's a group of ideas: developer empowerment, test first, pair programming, stories, etc.
There are even sub-methodologies of it: extreme programming, scrum, etc.

FAR too familiar with that one.
the group I work in would never even consider interviewing someone without a degree. if they only had a bachelor's degree they'd better have some incredible things elsewhere on their resume.
Well, this is obviously a heated debate, so I'll (probably) bow out now.
I would, however, end by pointing this out:
- schools is great. degrees are great. I have nothing against them. But, I've had to retrain more than not those that had a degree. The real programming world is not academic.
- if you don't interview people that lack degrees, you really are missing out on some genius people... the founder of my company can't interact for shit... but he can code a prototype of just about anything for a day

Consequently:
We do DB stuff of 3 or 4 types, sat-com stuff, multiple languages, automation, multiprotocol, multi-encrypted, real-time, high uptime, multi-platform code.
I have a certificate. That's it, and I certainly FEEL aware of our system.

School is only for those that need it.

- zevo
infinite density, zero volume

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:23 pm

inmazevo wrote:Just as a curiosity:
Are we talking about IT, or developing? Two different things.
The OP was about programming.

- zevo
we agree, I think, at least I didn't get your whole picture.

the road of skipping school because you can go into IT limits you. I says it's crap work because often you have to work when other people aren't (reboot servers, install new drives, power cycle stuff, etc.). crap work not meaning not fun or not fulfilling, crap work meaning you can be at the mercy of a pager that's controlled by a server saying it's getting to hot or starting to fail.

if I didn't go to school and I was 35 I'd probably rather hit the IT route than go to school, that shit's hard, don't know if I'd care to do it. everyone's different, I respect guys like forge and adonis who are putting in the time, that stuff ain't easy.

you CAN skip school and get into IT.
skipping school and getting a programming job is tougher, even if you get in, it puts a ceiling on your career path.


is the horse dead yet?

I just want to see forge kick ass in his future. that's the only basis for anything I've posted.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

nylarch
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Post by nylarch » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:35 pm

I would, however, end by pointing this out:
- schools is great. degrees are great. I have nothing against them. But, I've had to retrain more than not those that had a degree. The real programming world is not academic.
- if you don't interview people that lack degrees, you really are missing out on some genius people... the founder of my company can't interact for shit... but he can code a prototype of just about anything for a day
That's very good advice. I work at a major Bank in NY and have never taken a programming class. However, I work on the smaller web based departmental stuff and I can rock that shit.

The 2 best programmers I know, one of them is self taught and the other is self taught but then went through a major CS program too. They're both amazing.

That comment about Agile being bought by Oracle is the funniest thing I've heard since a sales person in the place I used to work used to tell clients "We have a web, do you have a web?".
MacBook Pro; Live 8 Suite, Reaktor; '77 Fender Jazz Bass; Apogee One;

inmazevo
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Post by inmazevo » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:35 pm

Indeed, tone, I think we more-or-less agree.
And I'd never suggest to someone that a degree is worthless, or not worth pursuing. In fact, perhaps the opposite: in order to be meaningful, you need to make the grade, and show that you learned something.
My advice can be summed up as:
Learn to program, THEN go to school for it.

I have, however, met quite a few $200,000+ devs who don't have any college whatsoever. They're passionate, and quite different from me in many respects, but if you work hard, and continue to study throughout your career, I really don't see a ceiling on your advancement.

It is, however, quite up to you. You have to have the passion, and the desire, to advance.

I've personally gone from automating test scripts, to writing sat-com code, in 3 years, and my salary has nearly doubled. It really can be done, though I admit it's only for the dedicated. However, if I'M hiring for my leads, I won't hire anything BUT the dedicated, though I won't look at all into their college backgrounds. I simply don't care about it as much as I care about "can you do this job."

A great portion of me regrets NOT having a masters. But, in terms of stability and pay and benefits, I'm exactly parallel to everybody around me that does have a masters. Go figure.

BTW - I don't mean any of that arrogangly. If I can do it, many can. Discipline and drive are the key to a good software development career, and creativity is good... think outside the box... make things work that shouldn't.

Take care,
- zevo
infinite density, zero volume

Moody
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Post by Moody » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:45 pm

inmazevo wrote:Indeed, tone, I think we more-or-less agree.
And I'd never suggest to someone that a degree is worthless, or not worth pursuing. In fact, perhaps the opposite: in order to be meaningful, you need to make the grade, and show that you learned something.
My advice can be summed up as:
Learn to program, THEN go to school for it.

I have, however, met quite a few $200,000+ devs who don't have any college whatsoever. They're passionate, and quite different from me in many respects, but if you work hard, and continue to study throughout your career, I really don't see a ceiling on your advancement.

It is, however, quite up to you. You have to have the passion, and the desire, to advance.

I've personally gone from automating test scripts, to writing sat-com code, in 3 years, and my salary has nearly doubled. It really can be done, though I admit it's only for the dedicated. However, if I'M hiring for my leads, I won't hire anything BUT the dedicated, though I won't look at all into their college backgrounds. I simply don't care about it as much as I care about "can you do this job."

A great portion of me regrets NOT having a masters. But, in terms of stability and pay and benefits, I'm exactly parallel to everybody around me that does have a masters. Go figure.

BTW - I don't mean any of that arrogangly. If I can do it, many can. Discipline and drive are the key to a good software development career, and creativity is good... think outside the box... make things work that shouldn't.

Take care,
- zevo

Wow, another intelligent answer supporting my side of this riddle.
Ableton’s engineers are hard
at work developing code that will allow our software to predict the future, but we don’t
anticipate having this available until at least the next major release.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:49 pm

:D 'sall good. worldwide public forum, there's a wide variety of people represented here. I accept your point of view.

now we just need that little punk ass forge to show up and tell us he decided to go into marketing instead!!
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

nolus
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Post by nolus » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:53 pm

My advise would be to become an estate agent, or a banker that's where the money is. keep programing as a hobby. :lol:
"That very perceptive of you Mr Stapleton, and rather unexpected... in a G Major"

Moody
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Post by Moody » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:56 pm

Very true, so to Forge...

Not sure of your age but I am going to shoot from the hip and say your still a youthful individual. So, use your youth to its full extent and enjoy your time in college. This can be the best times of your life and if you really want to be on the development side of things know that you will have to jump into the deep end of coding on your own or with some of the buddies you meet in school. Most of all have fun and chase the things you are passionate about in life. Good Luck out there!
Ableton’s engineers are hard
at work developing code that will allow our software to predict the future, but we don’t
anticipate having this available until at least the next major release.

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