(As a DAW) Live 7 vs. Logic 8

kent_sandvik · Post by **kent_sandvik** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:37 pm

e.maynard wrote:
Sleep Tyght wrote:I love Live, but seriously?..........
Logic Studio hands down. I can't even imagine mixing in Live. Don't think I'd ever want to.
Can you please elaborate? What is inferior about Live for mixing in comparison to Logic? I've heard this argument before, but I'd love to hear some specifics.

I'm really trying to get my head around this.

Many thanks!

Well, to start with you could have a separate window with the mix view in Logic, and place it on a dedicated monitor... --Kent

e.maynard · Post by **e.maynard** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:41 pm

That's a pretty good start. But that alone doesn't seem like a deal breaker.

I've mixed in Live and used only the arrangement view. That with a Mackie MCU seems pretty straight forward.

kent_sandvik · Post by **kent_sandvik** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:50 pm

Channel strips in Logic. Makes it easy to recollect all kinds of mix setups for later use, or use existing ones. --Kent

inmazevo · Post by **inmazevo** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:05 am

kent_sandvik wrote:
inmazevo wrote:I don't get Core Audio Overloads with Live.
At its very core, a DAW has to actually PLAY the track. All the bundles in the world don't make up for that.

- zevo
I don't get Core Audio overloads with either Logic or Live. It has mostly to do with the system, not enough CPU power or memory, second being badly written audio drivers.

--Kent

Indeed. Not everyone's circumstances will cause the bug to happen, or happen very often, but I bet (if you have an Intel Mac) I can make it happen in 5 minutes.

Actually, I've spent nearly two weeks on this now, investigating and testing hard with some workmates of mine.

I know that the "system" argument is the assumed cause, and its what Apple says to. Unfortunately, I disagree.

I can now reproduce the Core Audio Overload defect on all Intel Macs I have access to, from a basic Macbook (before and after system upgrades to try and eliminate the problem), to an iMac, to a DECKED out Macbook Pro.
All on clean system installs using Core Audio drivers, plenty of CPU (dual cores all around) and memory (2 & 4GB) and fast drives (7200 RPM). NO 3rd party applications or plugins of any kind installed.
CLEAN.

I've tested with built-in audio cards (Core Audio), Mackie Satellite (Core Audio), Presonus Firebox (Core Audio), and MOTU 828 (MOTU drivers).

It's 100% repro-able, with just a 33 measure project: 1 instance of Ultrabeat, 3-4 instances of ES2, and no effects.

There is a window (of system state) where it happens all the time, a window where it barely happens, and a window where it doesn't happen at all, and of course HOW you use Logic within those windows comes into play, which is why so many people hear people complaining about chronic Core Audio Overloads, and cache it off to "pilot error," or "system configuration."

I think I know what it is, but won't bother rewriting it here. Somewhere in one of my earlier posts I went into more detail (either here or on the Cake forum, I can't remember right now).
But, it's quite real, and quite old, and I'm quite tired of it.

I still use Logic Pro, and will continue to, since I know how to "workaround" the problem, as annoyed as I may get with it. It's a bang-up app... I love it. Still my favorite DAW overall.

Just wish they'd fix this. Sad that it takes specific circumstances to surface frequently, or they might have fixed it already.

What's particularly frustrating though, is that Live 5 and the Live 6 demo run perfectly on the same system.

Take care,
- zevo

Edited, to correct a typing error.

mechcon · Post by **mechcon** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:26 am

I bought logic studio so that it's used in a studio situation.. and Live for live situations... from what I've seen of both, and since I own both, and will own both for years and years to come.. yeah that's my comparison... Logic is for production, Live (can be as well but more so) is for live situations

Sleep Tyght · Post by **Sleep Tyght** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:30 am

e.maynard wrote:
Sleep Tyght wrote:I love Live, but seriously?..........
Logic Studio hands down. I can't even imagine mixing in Live. Don't think I'd ever want to.
Can you please elaborate? What is inferior about Live for mixing in comparison to Logic? I've heard this argument before, but I'd love to hear some specifics.

I'm really trying to get my head around this.

Many thanks!

I think any answer I could give would be instantly regarded as "bullshit" being that...I've never DESIRED to want to mix in Live. Think of it as merely a subjective opinion.

1. Live's overall look just doesn't strike me as appealing as used for mixing. I've found the metering in Sonar, Digital Performer, and Logic muh more suited for my tastes. Consider it a familiarity issue.

2. When producing a mix...or even 6 seperate mixes for the same song I'd rather mix in Logic because it's easier on the CPU. I'm using a G5 quad core, and I've have "tried' throwing various waves/izotope plugs on maybe 12 of a 30+ track project in Live that began to push my CPU over 80%. I don't get the same effect with Logic.

3. No mix groups soloing...there is a workaround though. Nothing fancy but it's not the same.

4. I would have thrown in "no easy sidechaining resolutions, but Live 7 addresses this issue.

I'm sure others could come up with better reasons, but it REALLY IS more of a familiarity issue than anything. There's just something about Live that strikes me as being unfit for mixing. Well Avatar is on...gotta run.....I'll reply again later.

kent_sandvik · Post by **kent_sandvik** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:40 am

Also, the way you could customize the Logic view section of the mixer, enabling/disabling the bus section, and so on, makes it much easier to navigate and look at the channel info while mixing, compared with scrolling back and forth in Live. --Kent

e.maynard · Post by **e.maynard** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:00 am

Thanks for the righteous input folks. Like I said.... I dig Live, but I use it as a writing tool and such and for mixing an occasional small deal.

But now I'm looking to mix ITB exclusively. I'll always keep Live around (or at least version 6). I guess part of my question is, could Logic (with WaveBurner) replace Live & Bias Peak for tracking & mixing?

inmazevo · Post by **inmazevo** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:43 am

e.maynard wrote:Thanks for the righteous input folks. Like I said.... I dig Live, but I use it as a writing tool and such and for mixing an occasional small deal.

But now I'm looking to mix ITB exclusively. I'll always keep Live around (or at least version 6). I guess part of my question is, could Logic (with WaveBurner) replace Live & Bias Peak for tracking & mixing?

Honestly, it's VERY hard to compete with the sheer amount of options available to you for mixing in the box with Logic Pro. The mixer is relatively configurable/route-able, and the bundled plugins for this are top-notch, they really are.

One of the reasons I'm so forgiving of the Core Audio stuff is because of the total package, and my familiarity of the app (I started with Logic years ago). I'd have already dropped every other DAW I have if it did something similar to Core Audio Overloads... but I won't drop Logic Pro.

For what that's worth...

Not meaning to plug LP on the Live forum, I'm getting Live 7 instantly as well.
On my systems, between Logic Pro, Live, Project5, Sonar, and Cubase... Logic Pro and Live have been the most consistent.

However, the 64bit audio engine/mixing (whichever) advantage between the two now goes to Live. Options are good, but if Live's quality (to your ears) beats Logic's, there you go, right?

Take care,
- zevo

- zevo

e.maynard · Post by **e.maynard** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:01 am

Thanks for that post bro.... Makes sense.

I'm so used to live but man, Logic makes a good argument for their product. I wish they had a demo version.

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:20 am

Live is fine for mixing if you have 20 tracks or less, beyond that you can't see the individual tracks easily and have to drag them to miniscule size as you don't have the option of putting a mixer window on a second monitor, which I can do in Cubase SX3 (can have 3 seperate mixer windows with channel strips and more detailed metering) but I maintain, despite the upcoming audio improvements, mixing in Live is fine and the sound quality is just the same as other 32 bit floating point mixing, but beyond 20 tracks the GUI gets a bit messy.

I still prefer to mix in Live wherever I can but it's not always possible. If I want 20 plus tracks or track crossfades, or vocal comping etc, I either rewire or render files and import into Cubase.

However, I'm really excited about sidechaining, automatable timing sigs, video export, better audio, better MIDI, slicer etc. in Live 7. This will reduce my need for Cubase.

As for composing and arranging, the creativity of session mode and on the fly auditioning and instant beat matching of samples and clips means I can get work done about 4 or 5 times quicker than I could in Logic, Sonar, Cubase, Reaper etc on their linear timeline. Live revolutionized my workflow in this way.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:27 am

e.maynard wrote:Thanks for that post bro.... Makes sense.

I'm so used to live but man, Logic makes a good argument for their product. I wish they had a demo version.

They make a decent pair actually. I would love to work only in Live, but Logic is deep, and easier to mix down on.
Honestly I think the main reason for that is track colors allow you to assign a color to an instrument, my moog is always deep red for instance.
That, and the CPU has about 40% more headroom in Logic than Live.

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:33 am

Yes, true about CPU. Reason is really light on CPU and Cubase about 15-20% lighter on CPU in my experience. I hope this is addressed in Live 7, if not on release (as they claim better memory management) in an free update later.

inmazevo · Post by **inmazevo** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:17 am

Ahh... memory management.
As near as I can tell, the Logic Core Audio problem I have is related to the whack memory management scheme of OS X. It's tied at the hip to it, so you end up writing continuously to a massive swap space even if you have enough memory without using swap space at all.

For example, a typical Logic Pro project of mine will have this ratio:
450MB REAL Memory
1000MB Virtual Memory/Swap Space

With 2GB of memory, and nothing else running, NOTHING Logic does should be going back and forth to virtual memory (read: hard drive). Disk IO uses more CPU than memory IO... and I think that's also one of the reasons why Live runs better on this machine in Windows than it does in OS X (bootcamped Macbook).

Granted, not all of the virtual memory is in use... it's reserved. But, I can sit there and watch projects play back, and the virtual memory use is going up and down... up and down... disk IO... disk IO...

Have some fun:
Open your activity monitor, and look at their memory management scheme. This browser, for example, is running 68MB of real memory, but has 475MB of virtual memory reserved!! Dude... it's a browser. WTF? I have ONE page open. I'm basically sitting still.

If the Ableton guys are trying to improve upon the memory management of Live, it really might be noticeable on the Mac side of the house.

I'm HOPING that Leopard will change this goofy system Apple has for memory management. Virtual memory needs managed better, to be sure.

There is hope, I think.
10.4 was written primarily for pre-Intel machines, with Intel support tweaked months after that.
10.5 is the reverse of that. And, being more fully 64bit, they had to do something to memory management. I just hope they did the RIGHT thing. If I have RAM... use it.

Take care,
- zevo

kent_sandvik · Post by **kent_sandvik** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:32 am

Most modern OS:es operate that way with VM, anyway, so it's nothing new. It's better than having fixed heap sizes that caused problems (MacOS remember anyone). And it depends how good programmers are, i.e. do they waste a lot of memory buffers and Objective-C objects, or know how to cache and reuse structures...

--Kent