Bypass record modifier

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
forge
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Bypass record modifier

Post by forge » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:29 pm

it occurred to me today that I probably wouldnt actually use the multi-lane automation at all if I wasnt forced to record every bloody thing I do

the problem that needed fixing more is the fact that you have to record everything you do rather than being able to seperate automation and sequence at the very least

the multi-lane automation is just another way of filling up the screen and it gets so big and messy I end up choosing the parameter in the drop down or right-clicking>show automation and doing it the old way

the last thing I needed was more screen clutter
Last edited by forge on Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

peeddrroo
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Post by peeddrroo » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:33 pm

what is "everything you do" exactly?

i don't get what your prob is.

forge
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Post by forge » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:34 pm

peeddrroo wrote:what is "everything you do" exactly?

i don't get what your prob is.
press record and do anything at all

I'm talking about the fact that so much unwanted automation is recorded theat I have to go through and delete it all

it just comes from recording a sequence and maybe some automation, but wanting to do other things at the same time that I dont want recorded - like mix or mess about with FX

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:40 pm

I don't get it either... I mean of course you need to record or draw the automation first and delete it if you don't want it... It's not really clear what you wanna say.

Maybe describe your solution a little better?

peeddrroo
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Post by peeddrroo » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:43 pm

do you press record that often and do anything?
personnally, when i record, i focus on what's being recorded, and i avoid tweaking all the rest.

then, how is it dealt with in other apps?

forge
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Post by forge » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:48 pm

icedsushi wrote:I don't get it either... I mean of course you need to record or draw the automation first and delete it if you don't want it... It's not really clear what you wanna say.

Maybe describe your solution a little better?
why does everything have to be recorded at once - I like that sometimes, but sometimes I can change alot of things in the space of recording for several minutes - I want only some of them to be recorded

in most other DAWS they have Read, write, touch for example - I don think Live needs that but some other way

anyway I am really feeling like a broken record and I am really amazed mroe people arent finding this to be a problem

I just thought of it now because I'm working on music, and every time I do I find this pisses me off

when you are trying to refine something - like for example you decide you want track 1 to remain at -6dB, but you dont realise that until you mix it with everything else, but it just so happens that you are recording the sequence, or a little bit of automation for a different device or parameter - now track one has recorded automation of me finding out that I wanted it at -6dB

if this happens for everything you touch while recording you can end up with A LOT of unwanted automation

Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:50 pm

Hi Forge,
I have definitely heard your concerns in the past , and would like to get to a better understanding of your exact problem...

Like peeddrroo said, I get the impression that you go through and record into arrangment while both "tweaking" and automating at the same time, and you want to separate the two processes?

I think the "idea" if you can call it that is to do all the tweaking *first*, *then* do the automation? I can totally see situations where this could be something you'd want to do simlutaneously, but doesn't this request warrant a change in user behaviour more than anything?

Could you perhaps describe, step by step, a situation where you'd want to change things, and what those changes would be? I didn't really understand your previous posts on this topic.

Thanks.

forge
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Post by forge » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:55 pm

Machinate wrote: I think the "idea" if you can call it that is to do all the tweaking *first*, *then* do the automation? I can totally see situations where this could be something you'd want to do simlutaneously, but doesn't this request warrant a change in user behaviour more than anything?

Could you perhaps describe, step by step, a situation where you'd want to change things, and what those changes would be? I didn't really understand your previous posts on this topic.

Thanks.
Wow - it really does amaze me that people are not only not finding this a problem but even not understanding why I do

did you catch my post above this? i did break it down a bit

peeddrroo
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Post by peeddrroo » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:06 pm

forge wrote:when you are trying to refine something - like for example you decide you want track 1 to remain at -6dB, but you dont realise that until you mix it with everything else, but it just so happens that you are recording the sequence, or a little bit of automation for a different device or parameter - now track one has recorded automation of me finding out that I wanted it at -6dB

if this happens for everything you touch while recording you can end up with A LOT of unwanted automation
well, i think i adapted my workflow to this and do the adjustments AFTER recording.
you're not doing realtime arrangement are you? you can probably keep in mind at which level you want your track (or any parameter) and set it afterwards.

anyway, i don't want to kill your effort to get things improved, but it's not really an issue for me.

forge
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Post by forge » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:07 pm

Machinate wrote: I think the "idea" if you can call it that is to do all the tweaking *first*, *then* do the automation? I can totally see situations where this could be something you'd want to do simlutaneously, but doesn't this request warrant a change in user behaviour more than anything?
.
I decide that a track is too loud while something else is recording then I have to just wait or stop recording the sequence mid stream

now multiply that by all the parameters on all the compressors on all the tracks and all the EQs and all the gains and all the pans etc etc etc etc

you think we should just remember all of those parameters until the sequence has finished recording?

that is wy other DAWs have read/touch/latch - in any music making or audio environment you should be able to change any of these things as and when the thought strikes you, not later when the first job is finished, and not so it will come back and haunt you

isnt that the whole point of this program - that it's real time?

forge
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Post by forge » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:09 pm

peeddrroo wrote:
forge wrote:when you are trying to refine something - like for example you decide you want track 1 to remain at -6dB, but you dont realise that until you mix it with everything else, but it just so happens that you are recording the sequence, or a little bit of automation for a different device or parameter - now track one has recorded automation of me finding out that I wanted it at -6dB

if this happens for everything you touch while recording you can end up with A LOT of unwanted automation
well, i think i adapted my workflow to this and do the adjustments AFTER recording.
you're not doing realtime arrangement are you? you can probably keep in mind at which level you want your track (or any parameter) and set it afterwards.

anyway, i don't want to kill your effort to get things improved, but it's not really an issue for me.
arranging real-time is one of my favourite things about Live

I start in session, get a kind of crude arrangement set out on the scenes, then jam it into arrange with scenes

I often want to jam other things too, but recording everything is really a total waste of time later

mike holiday
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Post by mike holiday » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:10 pm

i'm confused also.. didn't all that automation get recorded the old way as well??
or is it too early for me and i need more coffee?
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"I ain't often right but I've never been wrong"

forge
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Post by forge » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:13 pm

mike holiday wrote:i'm confused also.. didn't all that automation get recorded the old way as well??
or is it too early for me and i need more coffee?
:lol: I think I need that coffee

yes it is still the same as always - that's my point

I think that should have changed

I just mentioned it in this context because I was fecking about with the multi-lane thing and I realised all I was using it for was to delete all the crap I didnt actually want recorded - and there were like 20 lanes of it

Grifter
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Post by Grifter » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:33 pm

Hey Forge,

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think what you are asking for is a something along the lines of a _MUTE_ Automation function between session view and arranger view.

The _Mute Automation_ function would function between tweaking Session view automation recording into *arranger view* ?

( Like I said mate forgive me if I'm wrong :S )


Very good point if I'm following you in the right context... LOL :D

Actually its a great feature REQ if I understand Forge right ;)

All the Best

Griff

forge
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Post by forge » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:42 pm

Grifter wrote:Hey Forge,

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think what you are asking for is a something along the lines of a _MUTE_ Automation function between session view and arranger view.

The _Mute Automation_ function would function between tweaking Session view automation recording into *arranger view* ?

( Like I said mate forgive me if I'm wrong :S )


Very good point if I'm following you in the right context... LOL :D

Actually its a great feature REQ if I understand Forge right ;)

All the Best

Griff
I think you get it

let me break it down further:

you hit record

you trigger some scenes you want to record into arange

then you start sweeping a filter, which you also want to record

then you realise track one is too loud - but you want it to be permenantly quieter, not record automation of you actually turning it down

through the course of a whole sequence there could be loads of those

so you have 2 options
1. go back later and delete everything you didnt want automated
2. press stop everytime you want to change something and have to start recoring the sequence and other changes you DO want recorded all over again

I'm realising more and more that what we need is a simple modifier key to momentarily stop recording everything you do, then when you let go new changes are recorded again

but seeing as so few people seem to care I am beginning to think it wont happen

it seems liek everyone else uses Lives arranger like it's Logicbase etc

I prefer to see it as a linear way of deciding which session clips are triggered when and always keep that real-time approach

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