Bypass record modifier

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
steve-o
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Post by steve-o » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:01 am

forge wrote:
Grifter wrote:Hey Forge,

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think what you are asking for is a something along the lines of a _MUTE_ Automation function between session view and arranger view.

The _Mute Automation_ function would function between tweaking Session view automation recording into *arranger view* ?

( Like I said mate forgive me if I'm wrong :S )


Very good point if I'm following you in the right context... LOL :D

Actually its a great feature REQ if I understand Forge right ;)

All the Best

Griff
I think you get it

let me break it down further:

you hit record

you trigger some scenes you want to record into arange

then you start sweeping a filter, which you also want to record

then you realise track one is too loud - but you want it to be permenantly quieter, not record automation of you actually turning it down

through the course of a whole sequence there could be loads of those

so you have 2 options
1. go back later and delete everything you didnt want automated
2. press stop everytime you want to change something and have to start recoring the sequence and other changes you DO want recorded all over again

I'm realising more and more that what we need is a simple modifier key to momentarily stop recording everything you do, then when you let go new changes are recorded again

but seeing as so few people seem to care I am beginning to think it wont happen

it seems liek everyone else uses Lives arranger like it's Logicbase etc

I prefer to see it as a linear way of deciding which session clips are triggered when and always keep that real-time approach
I got you. Yeah, bothers me too.

ilia
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Post by ilia » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:27 am

yeah, good description. there needs to be a real-time way of avoiding automation record while recording everything else. something like control-drag or better yet a switch to disable/enable automation recording independet of audio recording.

forge
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Post by forge » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:01 am

*sigh* finally! some people begin to agree! :D

Grifter
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Post by Grifter » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:16 pm

sorry my last post was a a little bit off canter....way too much work and not enough sleep these days.

:(

Still the ideas in this thread are great, and I get what Machinate was saying now (sorry dude) :oops:


Thank fuck..no work for two days!

forge
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Post by forge » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:01 am

just thinking - I dont know if automation in session would totally solve this, because I think there are still plenty of times when you are recording one thing and dont want to stop it but dont want to record everything

but I was just thinking one possible solution (maybe not the most elegant) would be to allow the "delete automation" context option to be available even while recording

for example - at the moment the delete automation option basically lets me do exactly what I'm wanting here if there is already automation recorded

so: if track one has automated volume (which i dont want - that was recorded last time I recorded globally) then if I start recording and then adjust that level during record, I can then right click on the fader and select "delete automation" and it will delete all automation on that fader INCLUDING what I just did while global record is still enabled

I'd be totally happy to live with this if it would let me do this as well when there was not already automation recorded on that fader before I hit record

at the moment, if there is a fader with no automation, then I hit record and tweak it naturally the red dot doesnt appear until I stop recording - and neither does the "delete automation" option

but if 'delete automation' was always present no matter whether there was automation recorded or not then it could be used as a kind of undo button

this of course would not be as good as a bypass record modifier or separate record options for automation and sequence, (by a long shot) but it could help alot

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

just to provide another clear example of why I have this problem at all - and at the same time an example where the above mentioned solution would not be ideal:

1. start a new Live set
2. hit record and run the set
3. drag a compressor PRESET to a track (not just the device)
4. press stop and notice all the parameters are now automated - showing a change to the preset settings from the default settings for the device from the time when you dragged the compressor into the track until you pressed stop


Image

this also happens when you have used a preset as a default setting - it basically records the insertion of a device's preset as automation

so say you are recording a mad filter sweep on a track, then you realise it is peaking and needs compressing, so you drag your trusted favourite copressor preset to the track, now you have an extra 8 parameters that need deleting from within that section (bars 2.3 - 3.4 in the example)

Clearly a lot of effort has been put into making all these functions work in real time, but it seems the expectation is that we wont actually do things like this in real time - but I do things like this all the time and my sets end up very clunky and messy just because there is lots of unwanted automation recorded

there have been many times when I cant hear a track in a part of the song and cant figure out why until I realise that the default settings are engaged until the point where I dragged the device in and the whole thing is automated

of course, the reason I had record enabled in the first place was to record the filter sweep - so yes CCs in session would make a lot of this redundant, but given sequence is managed by the same record button there are still loads of other cases where I dont want things recorded - (replace my above example's filter sweep with a sequence recording and the situation is basically the same)

Vercengetorex
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Post by Vercengetorex » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:35 am

"Automation record mute" key modifier.

While holding this key command or MIDI note, any change made is not recorded.

This would do it right?

Maybe the delete automation anytime idea is better.
I cant think of a sig

forge
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Post by forge » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:39 am

Vercengetorex wrote:"Automation record mute" key modifier.

While holding this key command or MIDI note, any change made is not recorded.

This would do it right?

Maybe the delete automation anytime idea is better.
yeah basically that is exactly what I would like - I called it "record bypass" modifier - but its the same thing :wink:

I think it would be better, but I mentioned this "delete automation" idea because it's very nearly there already

the BEST scenario would be automation in session and a way of recording sequence and automation separatly - I think that would solve 90% of this

Gtrance
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Post by Gtrance » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:28 pm

forge wrote: so say you are recording a mad filter sweep on a track, then you realise it is peaking and needs compressing, so you drag your trusted favourite copressor preset to the track, now you have an extra 8 parameters that need deleting from within that section (bars 2.3 - 3.4 in the example)

Clearly a lot of effort has been put into making all these functions work in real time, but it seems the expectation is that we wont actually do things like this in real time - but I do things like this all the time and my sets end up very clunky and messy just because there is lots of unwanted automation recorded

there have been many times when I cant hear a track in a part of the song and cant figure out why until I realise that the default settings are engaged until the point where I dragged the device in and the whole thing is automated
God you really do produce your stuff live, dont ya. Actually dragging a compressor in whilst recording the arrangement and setting it all at the same time. You're way of producing with LIVE is the very definition of producing live!

forge
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Post by forge » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:17 pm

Gtrance wrote:
forge wrote: so say you are recording a mad filter sweep on a track, then you realise it is peaking and needs compressing, so you drag your trusted favourite copressor preset to the track, now you have an extra 8 parameters that need deleting from within that section (bars 2.3 - 3.4 in the example)

Clearly a lot of effort has been put into making all these functions work in real time, but it seems the expectation is that we wont actually do things like this in real time - but I do things like this all the time and my sets end up very clunky and messy just because there is lots of unwanted automation recorded

there have been many times when I cant hear a track in a part of the song and cant figure out why until I realise that the default settings are engaged until the point where I dragged the device in and the whole thing is automated
God you really do produce your stuff live, dont ya. Actually dragging a compressor in whilst recording the arrangement and setting it all at the same time. You're way of producing with LIVE is the very definition of producing live!
I really feel it is the best way

if you're making any kind of club music I find it's like running a race trying to keep up with Live before boredom sets in - trying to do as much as possible while I go as if I was performing live

I think there is something great about writing tracks like that - it's like it's a let down - inertia - when you have to press stop

sporkles
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Post by sporkles » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:54 pm

So, basically, what you want is a button that behaves in arrangement like the
overdub switch does in session (possibly one that only bypasses parameter
tweaks)? :D

I think that what confused a lot of people about this was that the initial post
seemed more like a peeve about multilane recording, and not the lack of a
quick "record bypass" thing.

It took me a while to figure out that the overdub switch didn't actually overdub
in session, but the minute I realised how it works, I couldn't live without it. I
have a rather different approach to recording than you have, as I do most of
my automation in session using envelopes for Rewire devices, but I can
definitely sympathise with your frustration. And, as you've already mentioned,
a simple toggle switch should be easy enough to implement.

Stefan Franke
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Post by Stefan Franke » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:06 pm

Hi Forge,

the ability to separate automation recording from MIDI/audio recording is in fact one of the top items on our todo list.

Your proposed solution with a modifier key however might only be a partial solution, since (among other issues) it works fine with mouse control if you sit in front of your computer but not so well with computer keyboard or (distant) MIDI remote control.

For a problem as fundamental as this one we want to make sure that we definitely come up with the best possible solution/compromise (especially in conjunction with other recording-related topics, like automation recording into session clips).

forge
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Post by forge » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:54 pm

Stefan Franke wrote:Hi Forge,

the ability to separate automation recording from MIDI/audio recording is in fact one of the top items on our todo list.

Your proposed solution with a modifier key however might only be a partial solution, since (among other issues) it works fine with mouse control if you sit in front of your computer but not so well with computer keyboard or (distant) MIDI remote control.

For a problem as fundamental as this one we want to make sure that we definitely come up with the best possible solution/compromise (especially in conjunction with other recording-related topics, like automation recording into session clips).
Hi Stefan!

thanks for the reply!

so are you saying I should abandon my policy of mentioning this every time I think of it? :wink: :lol:

I am so glad to hear it is finally nearing the top of the mighty list.

forge
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Post by forge » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:09 pm

Stefan Franke wrote: Your proposed solution with a modifier key however might only be a partial solution, since (among other issues) it works fine with mouse control if you sit in front of your computer but not so well with computer keyboard or (distant) MIDI remote control.
.
BTW - as a few others have also pointed out, the modifier would be good if it could also be a controlled by a MIDI button - and maybe a choice of toggle mode as well - so it shouldnt be any different whether mouse or keyboard etc if that were the case

so you press 1/C1 and new things stop being recorded but whatever was already recording continues, then press it again and it returns to normal recording

maybe the MIDI map (and Key map) screen could show the record button split like tempo is now, and the bypass option has a drop down in the status bar 'toggle/gate' that lets you select it's behaviour

I actually think even if we do managed to get automation and sequence separated there will stil be times when it would be very useful to be able to temporarily stop recording without stopping what is already recording

I come across this in so many situations, hence why I'm so amazed this is not a more common complaint

Stefan Franke
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Post by Stefan Franke » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:38 pm

forge wrote:
I come across this in so many situations, hence why I'm so amazed this is not a more common complaint
So are we. However, just wanted to assure you that this problem is on our radar screen.

forge
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Post by forge » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:14 pm

Stefan Franke wrote:
forge wrote:
I come across this in so many situations, hence why I'm so amazed this is not a more common complaint
So are we. However, just wanted to assure you that this problem is on our radar screen.
Great!

thanks Stefan, much apreciated! :wink:

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