Live 7 "Better" sounding?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
dfusion
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Live 7 "Better" sounding?

Post by dfusion » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:39 pm

So LIVE 7 sounds better? I guess those of us who argued for years that Live sounded more mid-rangey and muddy compared to Cubase and Logic weren't so crazy after all.

the dark wizard
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Post by the dark wizard » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:46 pm

no.....now live sounds far better than all the rest... 8) :P

timothyallan
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Post by timothyallan » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:01 pm

Its so much warmer now, not as warm as Logic on an old Mac, but MUCH warmer than Cubase on a Pentium 4 ever was. Still just barely not as warm as Cubase on a Core2Duo though, they still are the champs.

udp
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Post by udp » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:29 am

^ :lol: :lol: :lol:
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bensuthers
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Post by bensuthers » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:32 am

timothyallan wrote:Its so much warmer now, not as warm as Logic on an old Mac, but MUCH warmer than Cubase on a Pentium 4 ever was. Still just barely not as warm as Cubase on a Core2Duo though, they still are the champs.
rofl.

Tone Deft
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Re: Live 7 "Better" sounding?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:38 am

dfusion wrote:So LIVE 7 sounds better? I guess those of us who argued for years that Live sounded more mid-rangey and muddy compared to Cubase and Logic weren't so crazy after all.
no, it's just that nobody who said it sounded midrangey and muddy could put together a cohesive statement to back it up. there's still no reason to use those terms other than you pulled them out of your ass. how about 'tinny and bass heavy'?

every DAW has drawbacks, the problem is few people take the time to research what they claim to hear.
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Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:40 am

Sounds the same to me ????? :?:
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Timur
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Post by Timur » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:54 am

Well, the effects (EQ8, Compressor) can sound better now and the 64-bit summing engine should allow better output when mixing lots of tracks with lots of effects. But we have to wait for the audio fact-sheet to be published until we know for sure where 64-bit is used exactly (pre-fader, post-fader, pre-effect, post-effect etc).

Without using internal effects - that is with third-party plug-ins - there should hardly be a difference between Live 6 and Live 7 beside the 64-bit summing. To make that clear, 32-bit floating-point uses 24 bits before the comma plus 8 bits behind the comma. 64-bit floating point uses either 48 or 49 bits before the comma and either 15 or 16 bits behind the comma (single/double precision). Both are adequate for calculating 24 bit audio data, but 64-bit will allow more precise in-between steps for calculations of effects and summing with smaller rounding errors/aliasing steps (a bit like going from 127 steps 7-bit Midi to 16383 14-bit Midi). In the end it will all be rounded down to your rendering bit-rate (usually 16-bit or 24-bit, sometimes 32-bit for further processing).

As far as I understand bit-rate is more about dynamics and not about frequency (that's in the domain of sample-rate). But certain frequencies may better cut through with higher bit-rates/precision that formerly have been "masked" by quantisation/rounding errors in a mix with more prominent frequencies.

Nogi
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Post by Nogi » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:42 am

Tarekith wrote:Sounds the same to me ????? :?:
The same set (created in L6) opened and immediately rendered with no dither and no HiQ mode FX: http://www.virb.com/live7vslive6

Listen in particular to the hi-hats, especially the ping-pong delays decay. Better definition. Also, the bass swells on beat 3 (after 0:19) don't get as tubby. I'd characterize it as generally having more aural space for things to exist. Not sure what that is attributable to at this point without doing some testing. Waiting on the final version before any effort goes into that process.

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:33 am

The difference in your two renders is very subtle but I DO notice it. :)

I might not have noticed if you hadn't pointed it out to me. But since I know what to listen for I can hone in on it. Definitely the bass is more noticeable than the hihats. The stereo imaging in the hihats is a tiny bit clearer though and I can localize where they're coming from a little better. Again, we're talking subtle here!

What kind of reverb were you using on the percussion sounds? I liked the space you created with it.

dancerchris
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Post by dancerchris » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:21 am

Nogi: Your sets sound like midi synth VSTs not audio. With 64 bit processing the VST synths may sound different (particularly if they are of Live's own rewritten instruments). But in processing audio (summing engine) there should not be an audible difference. Try the same experiment with audio files with standard 3rd party VST effects and you shouldn't get any differnce. Did you use any of Live's instruments? BTW.....It's hard to believe that you can hear audible difference through streaming audio.

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stonee
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Post by stonee » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:32 am

that was the first thing i noticed on live 7 when I opened it, it sounded warmer.

Nogi
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Post by Nogi » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:46 am

dancerchris wrote:Nogi: Your sets sound like midi synth VSTs not audio. With 64 bit processing the VST synths may sound different (particularly if they are of Live's own rewritten instruments). But in processing audio (summing engine) there should not be an audible difference. Try the same experiment with audio files with standard 3rd party VST effects and you shouldn't get any differnce. Did you use any of Live's instruments? BTW.....It's hard to believe that you can hear audible difference through streaming audio.

My $0.02
In this instance, all tracks were frozen (not flattened) in L6 before rendering except for the drum kits which are samples played back through Impulse. (This wasn't any attempt at scientific variable limiting but rather because this particular set brings my Core2Quad to its knees.) I am very open to the idea that the source of the difference is not in the summing but as a result of revision to some other components. The tracks I supplied were more about showing that something was different, and to my ears superior, without getting into the whys and wherefores at this time which would be solely conjecture. I am going to experiment more, however. Cheers.

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Post by Anubis » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:43 am

stonee wrote:that was the first thing i noticed on live 7 when I opened it, it sounded warmer.
Oh darn, I was hoping it sounded cooler. :)
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ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:12 am

Anubis wrote:
stonee wrote:that was the first thing i noticed on live 7 when I opened it, it sounded warmer.
Oh darn, I was hoping it sounded cooler. :)
Just change the skin you're using :wink:

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