Live 7 "Better" sounding?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
3dot...
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Post by 3dot... » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:53 am

aviavi wrote:They sound the same to me.

Have you tried playing them both together, but switching the polarity ("phase") one one to see if they completely cancel?

A
nicht don't think so...no way they will... :)
Image

mr.adl
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Post by mr.adl » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:05 am

To me the 7er Version sounds cleaner / clearer. I listend to it with headphones and the bells at the very beginning sounded more shiny to me, like you EQed them a bit more.

Would be nice to make the utility trick to see (uh.. acutally "hear") if there is any difference.

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:49 pm

Josh Von wrote: Are people still being witchhunted and hanged by a noose in public squares around here for certain contrary opinions or what ..

Only when they are the kind of cunts that don't present *any* evidence whatsoever to support their bullshit claims. For instance if i were to repeatedly claim that the warp engine did something to my clips at orig. tempo even though other people repeatedly proved that to be untrue. Of course i would only be able to back up my statement with "i hear it, you must be an idiot" even though it would take me about 30 seconds to post some sort of file.


i'll take that apology or the proof of your position whenever you're ready, douche-pickle.



.lm.
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Josh Von
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Post by Josh Von » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:20 pm

Nogi wrote:Exactly. Created in L6 then rendered, then open in L7 with no user changes and render (same settings, no dither). Different result.

Yes I definitely hear it.


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Last edited by Josh Von on Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Josh Von
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Post by Josh Von » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:20 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:
Josh Von wrote: Are people still being witchhunted and hanged by a noose in public squares around here for certain contrary opinions or what ..

Only when they are the kind of cunts that don't present *any* evidence whatsoever to support their bullshit claims. For instance if i were to repeatedly claim that the warp engine did something to my clips at orig. tempo even though other people repeatedly proved that to be untrue. Of course i would only be able to back up my statement with "i hear it, you must be an idiot" even though it would take me about 30 seconds to post some sort of file.


i'll take that apology or the proof of your position whenever you're ready, douche-pickle.



.lm.

I don't owe you anything. Ask yourself why you care enough about any of this to get so upset about it, or carry a grudge indefinitely.

I wasnt directing anything at you personally. I simply state what I hear.

And you respond to me with insults and challenges, about somethings (surrounding nerdy topics that ultimately wont matter to the world at large) that everyone has completely forgotten about by now?

In life people disagree with you. Who cares, so what. Move on...

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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:06 am

Whatever. You've built yourself a cute little identity as some sort of "expert" on this shit and your fragile little ego would just crumble if you had to admit you were wrong about something.

And you, my friend, were the one who started the insults and challenges. I just took them a lot further, and frankly i think you deserved every bit you got.


i don't give a shit what anybody else thinks. I'm going to be up your ass about this until you can be a fucking man and admit that you were wrong.



cheers.



By the way, this has nothing to do with a disagreement. People can disagree about subjective things, (for instance how completely shit somebody's music is) but when there is an objective truth that some stupid cunt doesn't accept its simply ignorance on their part. Basically, i was right, and you were wrong. Everybody else has accepted it. Maybe you should think about why you can't.





.lm.
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Josh Von
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Post by Josh Von » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:25 am

I dont even remember exactly what any of this is about with you ... I think its amazing that you can read all that into this, that you hold this intense hatred about what I say -- which for me is just giving my opinion on a product I use in business and to make music.

Its so far removed from what I would call reality that I am not following it
anymore. My perception of this board and what happens here is so different from yours apparently that I dont get it

Are you projecting all these things about me and my personality
like Im some kind of evil villian lol?? Do you think remember all that much of what happens on here, or that I give it all that much thought when I click away?

About what? Im too busy. Why would I care about you that much to remember? I have a life to live.

As far as this idea that I am your nemisesis or something ... um I am honestly one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. Honest.


I think the one clips sounds better because I listened. Ummm ..

??

leisuremuffin wrote:Whatever. You've built yourself a cute little identity as some sort of "expert" on this shit and your fragile little ego would just crumble if you had to admit you were wrong about something.

And you, my friend, were the one who started the insults and challenges. I just took them a lot further, and frankly i think you deserved every bit you got.


i don't give a shit what anybody else thinks. I'm going to be up your ass about this until you can be a fucking man and admit that you were wrong.



cheers.



By the way, this has nothing to do with a disagreement. People can disagree about subjective things, (for instance how completely shit somebody's music is) but when there is an objective truth that some stupid cunt doesn't accept its simply ignorance on their part. Basically, i was right, and you were wrong. Everybody else has accepted it. Maybe you should think about why you can't.
.

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Last edited by Josh Von on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:33 am

it's about your unsupported claim that warp affects audio at orig tempo.

agreed upon by just about everybody to be untrue.





.lm.
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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:36 am

do you still believe it to be true?



would it have been so hard to just admit that you were wrong without all of this bullshit?


i don't give a shit about how nice everybody thinks you are.
we were having an important discussion about the nature of the product that this forum is about. I provided argument with evidence to support my standpoint. You provided thinly veiled insults and a bunch of bullshit with no effort whatsoever to provide any evidence to support your claim.


stop editing your post already.


.lm.
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Josh Von
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Post by Josh Von » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:22 am

leisuremuffin wrote:it's about your unsupported claim that warp affects audio at orig tempo.

Ah ok. Yes this was almost a year ago now? A long thread .. ok ..


People percieve a difference in the sound quality of Live's output compared to other sequencers. These are not just kids on a messageboard, or casual music producers, but professionals in the music industry of all kinds that engineer sound everyday.

The sound quality has always been fine for me. But if I wanted to concede that there might be a difference it was a certain muddiness on the top end lack of clarity and definition compared to a similar project in Logic or Pro Tools.

It has been coming from so many people for so long that -- if you are reasonable and unbiased -- it is only fair to take it seriously and try and conjecture why that is.

And my theory was this:

That since Live uses clips for all of the audio samples, and many people either do not understand warp modes, or do not carefully track which clips are running at which modes as the build the project ...

That by the time you are deep enough into the session, the arrange view is filled with a mass of clips that are running in different modes -- many of them complex (when they dont need and shouldnt be) and many of the samples are running far away from original tempo.

So:

The sum aggregate of all the warping - especially complex - or clips in beats NOT running at original tempo -- is a percieved degradation of the output.

This was my theory at the time and I dont know if I expressed that clearly enough.

But I dont recall insisting that clips running at beats mode in original tempo affect the sound quality. Im pretty sure I didnt -- especially if someone (you?) ran carefully designed tests to prove that they didnt.

My ego is honestly not that involved in being right, to care whether or not I am 100% of the time. Honest.

But if you ran those tests and they were properly done then thats cool, we learned something.

And I did apologize already for giving you a hard time on here, I'm pretty sure I did multiple times, and you keep rejecting that as not good enough.

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Last edited by Josh Von on Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Josh Von
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Post by Josh Von » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:26 am

leisuremuffin wrote: stop editing your post already.
.lm.

lol see? Why are you scanning this post and re-reading what I type?? I had some additional things to say. And Im being really careful about how I say it because you're really sensitive about this apparently.

I dont know why you care so much about this.

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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:33 am

scanning it? i came to reply to your post and twice i finished my post and got dumped back to the thread, where i noticed that your post was different.


yes, you and rikhy did make those claims.



here's my statement:

a clip, at exactly orig tempo, for any warp mode other than complex, is no different from that same clip unwarped.


it's been proven.



at the time of that thread, you called bullshit, and made no attempt to provide any evidence.




stop the vague bullshit and either sign off on that statement as true or provide your evidence to the contrary. That is all i asked of you then, and that's all i ask of you now.




.lm.
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Josh Von
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Post by Josh Von » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:38 am

stop the vague bullshit

Its not vague at all, its a very reasonable opinion based on the way Live works vs other programs.

Did you give me the respect to actually read and consider what I am saying?

Most (unbiased) people I have talked to that have had sound quality issues with Live said "Ahhh ... ok .. yes I can totally see that" when I told them this.

But you have an agenda Mike, you are a true believe and defender of the faith. You dont show respect for people, you dont listen, you are rude on here and you are persistant to the point of being unstable, honestly ...

leisuremuffin wrote:either sign off on that statement as true or provide your evidence to the contrary. That is all i asked of you then, and that's all i ask of you now.

Ok its untrue.


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Last edited by Josh Von on Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:41 am

cute, asshole. here's some of your bullshit from the orig thread:
Josh Von wrote:
Cryptic UK wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:Think what you will, but warping using beats or repitch mode does not effect the sound untill the tempo is changed from the orig. or a warp marker is moved.

.lm.
Think what you will and death to the warp :P
I also disagree with this and - although its highly dependent on the source material - warping even at original tempo can definitely alter the sound.

The algorithm is still operating on the sample even at original tempo.

The problem is that - in aggregate - when you have many samples running simulataneously in arrange grid - all of them warped, at original tempo - all these slight alterations in the source material add up.

I totally believe this is the main reason for the controversy about Live's audio quality in comparison with the competitors. The warping is on on these clips and people forget about this factor when they are judging the quality

.


why is it so hard for you to admit you were WRONG.


.lm.
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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:43 am

link to the thread for any interested:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0
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