An issue in the Audio Factsheet

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Angstrom
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An issue in the Audio Factsheet

Post by Angstrom » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:47 pm

in the section "Tips for Achieving Optimal Sound Quality in Live" the audio factsheet contains the advice
For all audio clips, disable both the Warp and Fade options in the Clip View.
I would amend the part about disabling warp. Disabling warp will deactivate the loop controls, among others. There is an option here.

I suggest changing this section to
*For all audio clips, disable the Warp in the Clip View, or make sure that Clip Tempo (marked Seg. BPM) exactly matches the master tempo

*Disable Clip fade

because if you match clip tempo to master tempo then warping is a neutral operation and, obviously, the actual tempo of the clip is not altered. The benefit being the retention of advanced clip functions.

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75828

alvaro
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Post by alvaro » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:54 pm

Good point Angstrom!
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shapshankly
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Post by shapshankly » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:16 pm

possibly, but if you are using the global quantise then you will still warp your clips even if they are at the same tempo as the project. so it wouldn't be neutral.

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:28 pm

global quantize?
no, sorry. I don't see where quantize comes into this at all

a warped clip with the Seg BPM set to the same as the Master Bpm will phase cancel with an unwarped clip. It is a neutral operation.

It is a trick which makes warping into a neutral operation. As long as you only have a simple loop that is, not something with lots of warp markers.

please read the guide I linked earlier, and read about the realated phase cancellation tests . http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75828

Timur
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Post by Timur » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:32 pm

Actually the Audio Facts sheet also describes the process of warping at song tempo to be neutral for all modes but Complex.

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:33 pm

yeah man, it would be nice if the document got rid of these discussions forever.


.lm.
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:37 pm

Timur wrote:Actually the Audio Facts sheet also describes the process of warping at song tempo to be neutral for all modes but Complex.
Yes, that's right. But, by the time they get down to how to actually do it, in "Tips for Achieving Optimal Sound Quality in Live" , they have forgotten to re-iterate that bit.
They are pretty much saying in that part "if you want Live to sound 'best quality' then you have to cripple it" with no sync, no volume envelopes... etc

They need to amend that "how to do it" part to include the info that they already mentioned earlier. that is my point. It seems silly to imply that Live has to be crippled to be 'high quality". It's not true. Just add an option as I stated in my first post, not an absolute as they currently have.

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:44 pm

well, i just read the thing, and i think it's pretty good.

I think the point of wording it that way at the end is to prevent morons from accidentially warping their stuff.


.lm.
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:23 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:well, i just read the thing, and i think it's pretty good.

I think the point of wording it that way at the end is to prevent morons from accidentially warping their stuff.


.lm.
it's true, the majority of complaints about audio quality are from people who are new to the application and don't realise that they shouldn't drag an 150bpm loop into an 80bpm track and expect pristine audio.
I can see that it is important to stop that happening.

Perhaps the factsheet needs an asterisk at that point, indicating a little addendum at the bottom, titled 'the non-morons option' or something like that.

Timur
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Post by Timur » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:35 pm

Well, it's still a valid point! If you want to be 100% sure that your clips ain't altered and don't need Loop you better turn off Warp. There can always be bugs creeping in (like in the first dozend Betas where Repitch in fact did alter the clips even at original tempo).

Dennis DeSantis
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Post by Dennis DeSantis » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:00 pm

Hi Angstrom,

Thanks very much for the feedback.

The goal in the "Optimal" tips section was to provide short, concrete usage ideas for a very specific kind of hypothetical user: someone who simply wants to use Live as a traditional, linear DAW, with the maximum possible sound quality.

My fear with adding special conditions to these tips is that there's more room for error. If a user leaves Warp enabled, he needs to also be sure that the clip isn't in Complex mode, the tempo never changes, Global Groove is off, etc.

We do include the disclaimer at the end of the section, advising users that some of the things that make Live so special will be disabled if the tips are followed exactly.

But perhaps, if there's still any discussion about the topic at all, this means that something should be revised. As with everything else, I'm sure we'll keep working on it.

Best,

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:18 pm

yes, I can see what you mean.
But it may leave you open to an endless stream of support mails stating " I followed the instructions and now I cannot use clip envelopes".

This line, which concludes that section:
Please note that these practices, while ensuring optimal audio quality, disable some of Live's functionality in particular, stretching and synchronization
pretty much implies that to get "good" quality you need to cripple the application.

I think that, at the least, you should hint in that section that there are ways of maintaining optimal quality and keep most of the functionality. As you do cover all those ways earlier on in the document perhaps you ought to extend the concluding sentence like this :
Please note that these practices, while ensuring optimal audio quality, disable some of Live's functionality in particular, stretching and synchronization. It is possible to make use of these advanced features and still maintain optimal audio quality, by carefully following the recommendations in section 2.3 "Unstretched Beats/Tones/Texture/Re-Pitch Warping"
The phrasing would need to be worded a bit better than that though , so that the correct type of user is routed back to the 'advanced' section, while 'trackers' don't feel that they need to re-read a section needlesly.

I would also recommend using a numbered index for the sections so a user can find section 2.3 ;)

all the best

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