why is the note mapping in drum machines so weird?

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snowtires
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why is the note mapping in drum machines so weird?

Post by snowtires » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:50 am

for example: on the c78 classic kit, EVERYTHING is set to receive all, play c3, except for the guiro samples. i don't understand why the keys the drums are mapped to don't just play the keys they're mapped to. like, why is the kick 'receive all, play c3' when it's acually on c1? doesn't it make more sense to have it say 'receive c1, play c1?' maybe there's some reasoning behind it, i just know that it was a pain in the ass to figure out what was going on when i wanted to change the choke settings for the hi hat/cymbals, because i had to keep going back to the clip to see what notes they were actually mapped to, and then going back to the drum rack and changing things accordingly.

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:00 pm

C3 plays a sample back at original pitch on Simpler/Sampler.
Thats why most slots send C3.

Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:27 pm

hoffman2k wrote:C3 plays a sample back at original pitch on Simpler/Sampler.
Thats why most slots send C3.
Yep. I do however wish there had been more elegant ways of handling this - loads of people seem to be having trouble, and drum rack routings etc become quite tiresome after a while...

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:12 am

I don't have my music computer available, so cannot double-check,

but as I remember, when set to 'all notes' input, the note output field is actually disabled (not really sending c3)

??

so are you sure that the simplers don't have their pitch knobs moved accordingly?

IOW, when set to 'all notes' - it is not remapping any incoming note to C3, it is passing all notes to that chain, and it's up to the contents/devices of that chain to sort out the note data.

Again, I can't check at the moment..

Tarekith
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Very confusing?

Post by Tarekith » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:12 pm

Yes, this is a really odd way of doing it, messing with my head as well. According to the manual:

"Note: Audio Effect Racks do not have key or velocity zones, since these two zone types alter MIDI data only. Likewise, Drum Racks have no zones at all; they alter MIDI notes based on choosers in their chain lists."

Which makes sense, except that almost all the Drum Machine's chain list choosers are set to "ALL" and then "C3" for the output. I understand the C3 part, but why all? With this method, all the midi input meters show you the exact same thing, note data for all parts simultaneously. So how do the Drum Machines determine which note data goes to each chain, by position in the Drum Grid? I mean, it's obviously working right, but I can't for the life of me figure out how unless this is just some behind the scenes programming we can't access.

Also, say I load up the 808 Classic kit, the HH samples are set to F#1 and A#1 instead of all, why? Just curious why some cells aren't set to All? And if C3 merely plays back the sample at the original pitch, why does that cell go silent if I change if I change this output field? Shouldn't it just transpose the HH in that cell? Or is this to facilitate being able to reorder the cells the way we want?

Sorry, just trying to get a better understanding of what's going on here.

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Post by Tarekith » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:26 pm

Also, each Drum Machine Drum Rack is really a collection of Instrument Racks it looks like. Yet the INstrument Racks don't have the ability to use Chain Selector either. Are these just disabled specially in Drum Racks?

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:20 am

Amo did some explaining recently, which doesn't address all your questions but is a good thing to consider...

Try to think of the pads as just shortcuts to a later stage of the MIDI data. In other words, hitting pad C1 is not sending a C1 note through the drum rack, but rather it is a way to trigger the sample(s) which is (are) mapped to C1 within the drum rack's chains.

For a chain with a single note->single note I/O, that should be the definition. In most cases the output will be C3, because that is the center of a Simpler's natural range.

For a chain with 'all' input, the output is disabled, and all notes passed to that chain, at which point it is up to the devices on that chain to sort out what gets played and what does not. The result of which will be reflected on the main drum rack's pad view automatically.

Disclaimer: talking off memory, don't have my music computer available to double check

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Post by Tarekith » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:35 am

Do you have a link to Amuary's talk? I've been searching with no luck. I read before where you said each device detemined the pitch and notes played, but looking at the devices, this is not the case, thus my questions :)

Call me curious, it's nothing major keeping me from using the Drum Machines.

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:43 am

dang, I'll have to at least install 7.0.1 on this computer, so I can make sure of what I'm talking about ;)

I can't remember where I read that stuff, I just remember what he was saying (?)

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Post by Tone Deft » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:51 am

sounds like an interesting post, does searching for Amaury as the author and "rack" or "drum rack" bring it up. I tried but there's quite a few and I never saw it to begin with.
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longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:08 am

I just installed 7.0.1 on this comp to double-check.

Elaborating a little bit: The automatic passing of note-playing through to the pad display (top-level drum rack) is dependent on that 'all' note setting.

Otherwise you'll get a display of only 'drum rack' or 'instrument rack' on the pad.

But with 'all notes' you'll see the names of the actual samples, on appropriate pads, of what samples will be triggered

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:47 am

longjohns wrote:I just installed 7.0.1 on this comp to double-check.

Elaborating a little bit: The automatic passing of note-playing through to the pad display (top-level drum rack) is dependent on that 'all' note setting.

Otherwise you'll get a display of only 'drum rack' or 'instrument rack' on the pad.

But with 'all notes' you'll see the names of the actual samples, on appropriate pads, of what samples will be triggered
Ok, sorta makes sense, but what about the few samples (well, instrument racks really), not set to ALL, but to specific note ranges? Those show up in the top level Drum Rack. Definitely appreciate your help, don't get me wrong, just trying to get a better understanding of what's going on with the Drum Machines.

I have to admit, they are set up remarkably more complex and unintuitively than I would have thought for such small sample sets :)

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:27 am

I don't have session drums installed so can't look specifically at that.

However I don't understand what you mean by "not set to all, but to specific note ranges"

because either a drum rack chain is set to 'all' or it is to ONE NOTE i/o

I think I can see that the automatic mapping out to the pads will only happen when the sub-racks are drum racks. it is not happening with Instrument racks as the sub-racks. Functionally things are basically the same, but the sample names aren't mapped out to the front for you.

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Post by Tarekith » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:05 am

longjohns wrote: because either a drum rack chain is set to 'all' or it is to ONE NOTE i/o
And that's one of my question, why are only a couple of the cells set to one note, and not All, what does that accomplish? Some come from the factory like this, and I can;t figure out why. At first it seemed to be related to Drum groups (ie, HH choking), but the more I play with these, the less I see that consistantly. I guess we're getting way deeper here than need be, I was hoping Ableton would be able to chime in and just explain the reasoning for making these relatively small and simple sample sets so complex. It's nto a big deal if you just want to load a kit and go, but once start moving cells around to acomidate your controller, then things get weird IMO.

BTW, do you know if there's any SLUG meetings coming up? I'm new to the area, would be nice to meet other Live users.

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:40 am

I am ashamed to admit I've still never been to one.

They had been posted on the local board, but I'm not sure if that still happens.

You could find the info on the nw electronic mailing list. However I find that there's way too much action on there, like 40 posts per day in the digests?? I can't pay attention to it


http://lists.f4.ca/mailman/listinfo/division

^^^ the mailing list sign-up, requires approval I think so might take a day to get on

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