WTF?? $ism is the root of all evil! Bush=Hitler!! Cultural Relativism is teh answer!!! The US is a murderous imperial juggernaut!!!!! CHOMSKYYYYY!!!!M. Bréqs wrote:Since you want to make this bigger than Iraq, so be it.zstowasser wrote:Ok M. Bréqs, please explain then why we are in the middle east (all of it, not just iraq & afghanistan). Explain why we are fighting, and what we are fighting for. Explain why they are fighting against us, and what they are fighting for. And explain how continued presence in the middle east and fighting will lead to peace and not more violence.
We (the West) are in the Middle East for strategic reasons. I don't dispute that. We need and want what they got (oil, strategic disposition). But, it's a two way street... The elites of the middle east want what we got (money), and their populations need what we got (certain elements of Western Civilization).
We're also there to ensure that the people of Israel aren't annhilated.
We're also there at the invite of various countries who can't sort their shit out themselves.
We're also there investing in infrastructure for too many countries inthe ME are too unskilled, corrupt or disorganized to do themselves (save for notable exceptions like Kuwait, Dubai and Israel).
Why does Saudi Arabia hire so many foreigners as engineers and skilled labour? Because they as a society have no skills themselves. A number of their Royal family may have degrees from Harvard, but the Saudi disdain for physical labour means that their society has to hire outsiders to connect two pipes together. Those societies in the ME that do have skills, are incredibly corrupt.
There's another "They" of whom you speak. (I love how simplistic arguments, rhetorical questions such as yours often use "They" rather than identifiable groups). This second group are the Salafists, Wahabists, and Islamists who are fighting against us because elements of the theocratic class and ruling elites fear the social influence we wield. Western Civilization is attractive, and they want to deny the benifits of it to their Thralls. They want to return to a period in the 7th century when they had power, but rather than do anything about it to improve their situation, they shit on the society who;
1. First abolished slavery (and successfully influenced other societies to do the same)
2. Invented mass communication
3. Invented modern democracy
4. Pushed the boundaries of science to the Astronomic and Atomic scale
5. Developed modern medicine, doubling the human lifespan.
6. First emancipated women
7. Established the concept of individual liberty
...I could go on.
Face it, Western Civilization is the greatest thing to happen to all of humanity. People want what we got, but their despots and religious leaders won't let them have it. That's why we should continue to be there.
Now, for a completely different question you asked; How will staying in the middle east produce more peace? In the short term, it will prevent 30 million people dying in a Sunni-Shiite civil war in Iraq. Saddam was doing that fine, but the US fucked that up. However, now that the US has done so, SOMEBODY has to prevent it.
In the medium to long term, we will continue to provide a positive example of how to run a just, stable society based on rationality rather than dogmatic, soul-crushing theocratic tyrrany. It will take generations, but the 7th century minded tyrants in the middle east will eventually lose their power to the will of the people who want to joint the 21st century...
Ahem, sorry force of habit, forgot I haven't been a leftist since '96. Seriously though, that is the most fierce batch of political science dropping I have seen on a music board EVER. Sounds like you have been exposed to the ideas of Ayn Rand at least indirectly.
Like your tunes on GarageBand too!!