whoa there buddy. I'm not sure whats going on here. Are we having a discussion? Or am I wasting my time just typing bullshit into the internet?M. Bréqs wrote:You've just lost me. Sorry, that's utter bullshit.zstowasser wrote:Those attacks are justified.
Because if they think that "we" are the reason the middle east is fucked up (and I don't think we are considering how fucking backwards islamic society is, but let's go on a magical mystery tour into their little fantasy here), and then "they" are justified in killing us over here, then you've just shot your entire non-interventionist argument in the foot! Because if it's righteous for them to attack us over percieved slights, then it's righteous for us to do the same.
get it?
By validating 7/7 and 9/11, you validate nuking mecca. If you accept violence over the perception of a slight against your honour, then guess what; I can't count the number of times I've heard or read "Death to the Great Satan" and similar shit coming from the middle east.
9/11 was not justified. When I get back from Afghanistan, I would love to introduce you to some people I know who lost family in the towers. I would like you watch you squirm while you try to explain to them your fucking theory in person.
If you had read my previous posts you would know what I mean. What I meant, was - in their minds - the attacks were Justified. They believe in eye for an eye. I don't. Maybe you do. Maybe thats why you are in Afghanistan risking your life. I don't think violence fixes anything. It can only cause suffering. The people of the middle east hold a grudge for centuries, they have been fighting for a long time. I believe we are doing more harm than good over there. I never said we are the cause of all their problems. It's a fucking mess over there. Has been for centuries. However, we have been propping up dictators and giving weapons and money to both sides. Sometimes in the open and sometimes in secret. Please, for the love of [insert god here], can you try to put yourself in their shoes? Please, I beg of you. Just try. It won't be that hard, I promise. But you might need to change your mind. I know it sounds scary. Just give it a shot. Please.
After you do that, answer me this. I believe deep down that we are all good people. Do you? Or do you think that we are all sinners / evil / bad people and nothing can ever be done about it, so we must control everything. And if that is the case, how can you "justify" telling other people how to live, especially through force, if we are all bad people? Or is it that "some people" are bad, and "we in the west" happen to be the good ones, so it is our duty to protect them from themselves?
Have you heard of the golden rule? Treat others how you wish to be treated.
I have no problem discussing this topic with anyone in person. I do this often. I know the arguments. I know the defenses. The justifications. Seems though that arguing with pro-war people, logic, facts and truth doesn't seem to work, since we're all evil people and there is nothing we can do about it. Might as well give up my liberties, sit down, shut up and hope my dictator is nice to me and can pay me in some paper money, or not turn off my chip.