2008

[zstowasser]

Those attacks are justified.

You've just lost me. Sorry, that's utter bullshit.

Because if they think that "we" are the reason the middle east is fucked up (and I don't think we are considering how fucking backwards islamic society is, but let's go on a magical mystery tour into their little fantasy here), and then "they" are justified in killing us over here, then you've just shot your entire non-interventionist argument in the foot! Because if it's righteous for them to attack us over percieved slights, then it's righteous for us to do the same.

get it?

By validating 7/7 and 9/11, you validate nuking mecca. If you accept violence over the perception of a slight against your honour, then guess what; I can't count the number of times I've heard or read "Death to the Great Satan" and similar shit coming from the middle east.

9/11 was not justified. When I get back from Afghanistan, I would love to introduce you to some people I know who lost family in the towers. I would like you watch you squirm while you try to explain to them your fucking theory in person.

whoa there buddy. I'm not sure whats going on here. Are we having a discussion? Or am I wasting my time just typing bullshit into the internet?

If you had read my previous posts you would know what I mean. What I meant, was - in their minds - the attacks were Justified. They believe in eye for an eye. I don't. Maybe you do. Maybe thats why you are in Afghanistan risking your life. I don't think violence fixes anything. It can only cause suffering. The people of the middle east hold a grudge for centuries, they have been fighting for a long time. I believe we are doing more harm than good over there. I never said we are the cause of all their problems. It's a fucking mess over there. Has been for centuries. However, we have been propping up dictators and giving weapons and money to both sides. Sometimes in the open and sometimes in secret. Please, for the love of [insert god here], can you try to put yourself in their shoes? Please, I beg of you. Just try. It won't be that hard, I promise. But you might need to change your mind. I know it sounds scary. Just give it a shot. Please.

After you do that, answer me this. I believe deep down that we are all good people. Do you? Or do you think that we are all sinners / evil / bad people and nothing can ever be done about it, so we must control everything. And if that is the case, how can you "justify" telling other people how to live, especially through force, if we are all bad people? Or is it that "some people" are bad, and "we in the west" happen to be the good ones, so it is our duty to protect them from themselves?

Have you heard of the golden rule? Treat others how you wish to be treated.

I have no problem discussing this topic with anyone in person. I do this often. I know the arguments. I know the defenses. The justifications. Seems though that arguing with pro-war people, logic, facts and truth doesn't seem to work, since we're all evil people and there is nothing we can do about it. Might as well give up my liberties, sit down, shut up and hope my dictator is nice to me and can pay me in some paper money, or not turn off my chip.

[b0unce]

I believe deep down that we are all good people.

Wrong.
You can't be serious ?

[zstowasser]

I believe deep down that we are all good people.

Wrong.
You can't be serious ?

serious.

people just have to be educated. society needs to change. I believe we will be forced to change and work together in the very near future. Think back hundreds / thousands of years ago. Society was different. We change. We evolve. We grow. We mature.

I want to live in a community where we shame and shun violence/aggression just as we do to rapists and murderers, or people shitting in public streets. These types of behaviors would be unacceptable. Including killing people for resources (oil).

might sound silly, but use your imagination. what type of society would you like to live in ?

[b0unce]

I want to live in a community where we shame and shun violence/aggression just as we do to rapists and murderers, or people shitting in public streets. These types of behaviors would be unacceptable. Including killing people for resources (oil).

right, so how do the thugs, rapists & murderers fit into your "we're all good" ethos ?

????

[dcease]

b0unce,
in a society where children looked forward to the future, and not a way out of the hod/shittownshanty/desertfuckholewithnofreshwaterandgarbagepiledhigherthantheireyescansee(inhale) that they grew up in that involves some type of crime. supply and demand.they see it, they get it.
we should demand equality. no one can say what a world of equality would be like, because there has never been one. why not try? or is that too gay

[Tarekith]

I think we should all just play monopoly, seriously, it would be better for us all.

[b0unce]

dcease, are you drunk ?
are you at zstowasser's house?
the both of you, drinking peach schnaaps? in your underpantses ?

[dcease]

eh, what can you do? death to hippies...

[Chicle777]

Hillary? hmmm....Obama? hmmm.....fuck that. Non of them will save the US.
I want Arnold Schwarzenegger to do it with his "enviroment friendly" etanol
driven Hummer by driving from Cali to Washington and crashing it into the
white house. He will have David Hasselhoff singing the american anthem and
waving the biggest american flag he could find on top of the Hummer gathering
votes along the way. They will team up with Stallone at Planet Hollywood, eat
hamburgers and go to the premiere of the new Rambo movie and realize that
that´s the way to save the world from new uprising evil force over at Moskva.
Stallone will be assigned the foreign minister post for his earlier experinces
and over a latte at Starbucks they will figure out a way to get rid of China too.
World order restored. Back to Cali and smoke some cigars and write a book
and make a movie about it. That´s how it´s done!

[dcease]

i had a dream that dude was president before he became governor. americans are stoopid enough to elect him. i wouldn't doubt the gop trying to change the law for him. he's their golden boy, a republican kennedy. how odd.

[b0unce]

i had a dream that dude was president before he became governor. americans are stoopid enough to elect him. i wouldn't doubt the gop trying to change the law for him. he's their golden boy, a republican kennedy. how odd.

deep down he's good

[D K]

to answer the original question:
waking up does the us no good.
it's already too late.

[dcease]

oh... you must be in magical peaceland. this generation is fucked. that which i'd like to see happen, could never happen with us alive. we are too greedy, and cynical. but it is a nice thought. our kids is where we could start...

many great things have come from positive thinking. nothing would ever get done without thinking it could be done. so i guess if we want to think the worse of it... well you catch my drift.

[b0unce]

many great things have come from positive thinking. nothing would ever get done without thinking it could be done. so i guess if we want to think the worse of it... well you catch my drift.

hoping for a utopian future is one thing.
Denying the cold hard truths of the present is another, more stupid, thing.

It's like pretending your dog didn't shit on the floor, and hoping it's going to be gone tomorro. It's like pretending your dog doesn't shit on the floor. It's like pretending your dog doesn't shit.

[dcease]

what has been denied?