Go out and vote

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dcease
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Post by dcease » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:51 pm

smutek wrote:Just read Brzezinski's "The Grand Chessboard" to get a glimpse of his views.
nobody will listen, but i hear ya... that's some fucked up shit there^
it takes more balls to stand up for what you believe, than to fall in line and knock others for having free thought, which differs from your own... whether intellegent or not... and again tone, why don't you stop bashing people and help to educate people like me, WHY i should vote, something that the media has failed miserably at... all i hear is blah, blah, blah...

forge
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Post by forge » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:08 pm

smutek wrote:There we see one of the costs of so called "liberal" American foreign policy.
that may be so Smutek - but please as an american, spare the world from more "right wing" American foreign policy

look at the histories of any of the worlds empires and they are all run by evil corrupt arseholes, but you at least have some say in which one runs yours

any sane, thinking person must understand that what they call "Liberal" foreign policy is a lot better than what they call "right wing" foreign policy. No matter how bad that Liberal policy is, the right wing will always be worse because right wing by definition virtually means "more self centered and bigotted". That is never a recipie for 'in the world's best interests'.

sadly, the politics of government is all about "who to fuck over the least"

As long as America is as large and powerful as it is, it is going to fuck over somebody, so the question is really who and by how much.

I read Prince Andrew made a comment about America not listening to advice and learning from Britain's experience in running an empire. I think there's a lot of truth in that comment.

I'm sure every one of you there knows that your international image is completely different to what it was under clinton, and not in a good way.

Go on prove us all wrong and make Obama the next president.

ChiDJ
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Post by ChiDJ » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:48 pm

Voted. Feel Good about it. Despite being a Repub in a highly democratic city and state.

Go " "! 8)
"Let you're body feel the sound! Let it cover you up and down!"

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chrysalis33rpm
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Post by chrysalis33rpm » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:29 pm

smutek wrote: A decision to boycott an election is quite different than saying "oh my vote isn't heard" or not voting out of laziness. It's a conscious decision and one that takes more courage, thought and genuine insight than just voting for "whoever the dems throw up" IMHO.

If it came down to it and I had my choice of Hitler, Stalin or Musolini I'd rather say that I choose none. An extreme example yes, but an example nonetheless.
"Boycotting"?! Gimme a break Smutek. Who on earth are you expecting to respond to your boycott? What difference will it possibly make?

On the other hand, a democratic victory will make concrete differences - among them, Bush's tax cuts will not be made permanent (which would pull the legs out from an already shaky economy, long term), environmental regulations will actually be enforced (no small deal in a time when a coalition of states has to sue the federal gov't to be able to regulate CO2 emissions and the Navy is projecting that the north pole could be open water during the summers within the decade), we have a real chance of finally getting a decent healthcarre system in our country, scientific research could finally proceed unhampered by people certain that the earth is 5000 years old, etc.

I respect your disgust with the recent behavior of the democratic party, it's pathetic, but to pretend that there is not a huge difference between the two tickets plays right into the system's hands.

Like it or not, the nature of democracy is compromise - your representatives are not going to represent you well on everything. That's the nature of the beast. There is still a huge stake in the coming election - and a huge gap between the sides. (And I understand you don't like Clinton - but comparisons with Stalin are a tad overdone, don't you think?)

brightonalex
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Post by brightonalex » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:59 pm

popslut wrote:
A vote for anyone is a vote for the status quo.
I would vote for Status Quo if they were running. But as Stevie Wonder is supporting Obama, I will be voting for him in my head.

forge
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Post by forge » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:03 pm

brightonalex wrote:
popslut wrote:
A vote for anyone is a vote for the status quo.
I would vote for Status Quo if they were running.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

do you think they'd just give you whatever you want?


:roll:

smutek
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Post by smutek » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:08 pm

chrysalis33rpm wrote:
smutek wrote: A decision to boycott an election is quite different than saying "oh my vote isn't heard" or not voting out of laziness. It's a conscious decision and one that takes more courage, thought and genuine insight than just voting for "whoever the dems throw up" IMHO.

If it came down to it and I had my choice of Hitler, Stalin or Musolini I'd rather say that I choose none. An extreme example yes, but an example nonetheless.
"Boycotting"?! Gimme a break Smutek. Who on earth are you expecting to respond to your boycott? What difference will it possibly make?

On the other hand, a democratic victory will make concrete differences - among them, Bush's tax cuts will not be made permanent (which would pull the legs out from an already shaky economy, long term), environmental regulations will actually be enforced (no small deal in a time when a coalition of states has to sue the federal gov't to be able to regulate CO2 emissions and the Navy is projecting that the north pole could be open water during the summers within the decade), we have a real chance of finally getting a decent healthcarre system in our country, scientific research could finally proceed unhampered by people certain that the earth is 5000 years old, etc.

I respect your disgust with the recent behavior of the democratic party, it's pathetic, but to pretend that there is not a huge difference between the two tickets plays right into the system's hands.

Like it or not, the nature of democracy is compromise - your representatives are not going to represent you well on everything. That's the nature of the beast. There is still a huge stake in the coming election - and a huge gap between the sides. (And I understand you don't like Clinton - but comparisons with Stalin are a tad overdone, don't you think?)
It's not about giving you or anyone a break or expecting a response. I understand where you (and forge) are coming from, and I respect that, I really do. But for me it's about my conscience and what I will choose to support or not to support.

Again, I honestly haven't made up my mind. At this point I most likely *will* vote in the general election, I only said I understood popslut's position and that I was *getting* to that point myself. Again, have not made a decision.

One thing I have determined for sure is that my vote will not go to any of the current Democrats.

I just can't do it man. I've never felt more let down and betrayed than I have by the Democrats over the past couple of years, particularly by the current congress and so called liberal groups such as moveon.

I can not and will not vote for the Democratic party. And I will never cast the "lesser of two evils" vote ever again. I refuse to be a part of it.

I do have a party I am considering joining, and if/when I do I will be active with them, and I will continue to be active working for change in my community as I have been for the past 5 years now.

That's my position, and I present it with all due respect, and I thank you for taking the time to at least think about and respond intelligently to what I've written as opposed to just launching into a thoughtless name calling tirade.

forge
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Post by forge » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:27 pm

I just figured out what went wrong

they made Buck Rogers president

http://youtube.com/watch?v=77H5nHdcyQM&feature=related


this one has to be mashed up:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4fHJ8NsppF4&feature=related 8)

in fact I'm only going to leave that link up for a limited time because I'm using it!

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:38 pm

It's all good if people choose not to vote that's their decision and no one should try to persuade them otherwise


however, I predict for obvious reasons there will be a major bump in minority, women and young voters this election

So even if one person chooses not to vote - there will be several other people who will
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forge
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Post by forge » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:43 pm

djadonis206 wrote:It's all good if people choose not to vote that's their decision and no one should try to persuade them otherwise


however, I predict for obvious reasons there will be a major bump in minority, women and young voters this election

So even if one person chooses not to vote - there will be several other people who will
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Kv8qP2kuw

chrysalis33rpm
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Post by chrysalis33rpm » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:47 pm

smutek wrote:
chrysalis33rpm wrote:
smutek wrote: A decision to boycott an election is quite different than saying "oh my vote isn't heard" or not voting out of laziness. It's a conscious decision and one that takes more courage, thought and genuine insight than just voting for "whoever the dems throw up" IMHO.

If it came down to it and I had my choice of Hitler, Stalin or Musolini I'd rather say that I choose none. An extreme example yes, but an example nonetheless.
"Boycotting"?! Gimme a break Smutek. Who on earth are you expecting to respond to your boycott? What difference will it possibly make?

On the other hand, a democratic victory will make concrete differences - among them, Bush's tax cuts will not be made permanent (which would pull the legs out from an already shaky economy, long term), environmental regulations will actually be enforced (no small deal in a time when a coalition of states has to sue the federal gov't to be able to regulate CO2 emissions and the Navy is projecting that the north pole could be open water during the summers within the decade), we have a real chance of finally getting a decent healthcarre system in our country, scientific research could finally proceed unhampered by people certain that the earth is 5000 years old, etc.

I respect your disgust with the recent behavior of the democratic party, it's pathetic, but to pretend that there is not a huge difference between the two tickets plays right into the system's hands.

Like it or not, the nature of democracy is compromise - your representatives are not going to represent you well on everything. That's the nature of the beast. There is still a huge stake in the coming election - and a huge gap between the sides. (And I understand you don't like Clinton - but comparisons with Stalin are a tad overdone, don't you think?)
It's not about giving you or anyone a break or expecting a response. I understand where you (and forge) are coming from, and I respect that, I really do. But for me it's about my conscience and what I will choose to support or not to support.

Again, I honestly haven't made up my mind. At this point I most likely *will* vote in the general election, I only said I understood popslut's position and that I was *getting* to that point myself. Again, have not made a decision.

One thing I have determined for sure is that my vote will not go to any of the current Democrats.

I just can't do it man. I've never felt more let down and betrayed than I have by the Democrats over the past couple of years, particularly by the current congress and so called liberal groups such as moveon.

I can not and will not vote for the Democratic party. And I will never cast the "lesser of two evils" vote ever again. I refuse to be a part of it.

I do have a party I am considering joining, and if/when I do I will be active with them, and I will continue to be active working for change in my community as I have been for the past 5 years now.

That's my position, and I present it with all due respect, and I thank you for taking the time to at least think about and respond intelligently to what I've written as opposed to just launching into a thoughtless name calling tirade.
Well, I certainly respect that - and I have felt let down time and time again by the dem's myself. I just am hoping for some policy changes that I feel are immense, real, and measurable - whether or not they are perfect, there is a gigantic difference. Do you really think a polar bear gives a fuck who signs legislation that limits greenhouse gasses?

But do you really imagine that a democratic society could really NOT have a 'lesser of two evils' approach when it comes to representation? I mean, any candidate is going to have something that sticks in your craw, right? What party are you consider throwing your hat in with? I mean, I'd happily support Kucinich because I believe generally in what he believes in - but he ain't never ever gonna win, the country ain't ready. So what do I do, I choose the candidate who represents me - very imperfectly, but a damn sight better than my other choice - and I work day by day to make the system obsolete.

@ adonis - good point - you are always so chill, I should follow your example.

popslut
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Post by popslut » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:16 pm

I don't expect my active non-participation to bring the system to its knees or shock the man into mending his ways.

I just can't bring myself to vote for somebody whose politics I abhor or endorse a system where only political parties with budgets running into hundreds of millions of dollars stand a chance of standing, let alone actually winning.

Where powerful lobby groups openly buy influence and politicians whore themselves out to the highest bidder and get their families on the payroll.

I'm always mystified why you all run out in droves to lend your support to your bankrupt systems of administration - like turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Btw, it's gonna be President McCain. He's white, middle-aged and male and he looks presidential in a suit and tie with a stars and stripes lapel pin.]

smutek
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Post by smutek » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:22 pm

@ chrysalis33rpm:

Thanks for your response.

I know that there will always have to be compromise. For me, last year when the Israeli air force dropped tons of cluster bombs on Beirut and the Democratic party voted their near unanimous support, and I heard not a peep from moveon.org about this, well - that was the beginning of the end of my support for the Dems. And to hear Pelosi and my representatives tell me time after time that impeachment is off the table is utterly infuriating to me.

Also infuriating to me is that they have done for the most part nothing at all to end this war and definitely nothing to move against these criminals that are in the white house now.

I just can't properly express to you how sick that makes me. And it's a drag, because I've been a Dem since age 18, 19 years now.

I too would have supported Kucinich. For what it's worth I'm now looking at the Greens. Cynthia McKinney is running for the green nomination and I would consider voting for her.

And look, I'm really not looking to push on you (or anyone else) or defend any of my positions written above, it's just part of what makes me tick and I thought it would be prudent to provide some of the rationale behind my thoughts.

Jagermaestro
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Post by Jagermaestro » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:44 pm

For those of you "boycotting", you should still exercise your democratic right and spoil your ballot, rather than just not showing up.

popslut
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Post by popslut » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:48 pm

Jagermaestro wrote:For those of you "boycotting", you should still exercise your democratic right and spoil your ballot, rather than just not showing up.
Why?

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