thinks : is a good faker equivalent to a good performer?

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Angstrom
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thinks : is a good faker equivalent to a good performer?

Post by Angstrom » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:11 pm

here's something I have been thinking about for a while

is an entertaining faker equivalent to a 'real' performer?
Let's assume that the faking is indistinguishable from the 'real thing', this faker looks exactly like the real thing. Forget about the crew and the trainspotters for the moment, lets assume that the faker is so good that the trainspotters can't tell either. The whole audience are convinced that the faker is real.

So.
Let's imagine two nightclubs, each with a performer on stage, each with a stack of knobs and dials, each playing good music which the crowd enjoys. We survey the audiences as they exit for their satisfaction and both audiences say they were 90% satisfied by their night out .

one of them was just miming to a CD and it is impossible to tell which one.
does it matter?


There's a second part to this, let's up the ante here:
when is faking better than working hard?

Many Live users have gone to great trouble to make their sets "fully live", that means going from a blank screen at the beginning of the gig and generating all the music right there on the spot. This normally looks like a man hunched over having a heart attack, and is as fun to watch.

Flipside : someone who turns up with everything pre-planned, so they could just press the spacebar and sit back for an hour ... but they put real effort into working the crowd up. Our two crowds now say that the faker was more entertaining that our poor guy who put his heart and soul into it. The sound was better off the faker, the mixes were tighter, the arrangements were snappier - he involved himself with the crowd more (he had nothing else to do !) ... the 'real' guy looked stressed and made fuck-ups, therefore - he was less good.

Now, the crowd may be ill-educated here. But it's not the crowds job to be educated, they just want to have a good time and Mr Faker delivered it better than mr Real.

So this is what I have been pondering:
it's not what is actually happening, it is what appears to be happening which counts to an audience

you might argue that 'really' making music is somehow morally or somehow perceptually different from 'faking' playing music. But as I said - we are not talking about the reality - we are talking about perception, and the concensus perception is equivalent to reality.
In this example the audience cannot tell, and it is the audience who count here, they are the ones that the music is directed at. They are the democracy who vote on the consensus reality.

just thinking, y 'know

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:18 pm

I guess the answer is yes

I'd just rather not go out at all if I had to go to some generative ambient set from scratch

but I'd shoot myself in the head if I had to sit through a lip snyc'd dj set or "
" live " " performance so...


I mean, when you watch a movie you know it's not all real - but the more authentic they make it the better it is right?
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OvertoneZero
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Re: thinks : is a good faker equivalent to a good performer?

Post by OvertoneZero » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:33 pm

Angstrom wrote: it's not what is actually happening, it is what appears to be happening which counts
Words to live by..
:lol:

beats me
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Post by beats me » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:48 pm

A few years ago when people asked me why I didn't do live shows I would say "I wouldn't even know how to pull it off live". Now when they ask I'll just say "Posts about Justice on the Ableton forum".

I think all us musician and DJ types are living in an ignorant bubble when we assume the average show attendee gives a shit about what the DJ or artist is really doing live. There's a reason it's called a "show". They don't call it "skills aptitude test".

kabuki
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Post by kabuki » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:48 pm

I had a similar situation happen to me recently: allow me to elaborate.

I was hired to DJ a wedding by a co-worker. They wanted some really fun music "really mixed up. Not just playing one song all the way to the end and playing another song..." They wanted mashups, mixups, and dancing. I knew I wasn't getting paid for shit. I wanted to do it for fun, but I put a TON of work prepping for the gig. I warped almost 300 songs worth of disco, rock, hiphop, pop, big band, and swing. I rented the PA well ahead of time and set it up to nail the EQ settings, and I even edited all of the bad words out so grandma wouldn't shit her diaper everytime 50 Cent dropped the N-Bomb. I worked my ass off.

Unfortunately, Live 7 wasn't working as hard as I was. Glitches, pops, audio drops and instability. I was faced with a TOUGH decision. Either play "Live", the way I really, REALLY wanted to, and risk crapping all over their beautiful day.

Or

I could pre-record a live set, make adjustments, load the iPod with a rendered CYA backup, and hit play in Live...

Or

Play the pre-rendered set and focus on the MCing I had to do as well?

Ultimately, I played the pre-recorded set. The girls (and there were a ton of them, some grae-A fine-ass meat) were dancing their asses off. The guys were having fun because, when momma's happy, everyone's happy. I told the groom the situation after the daning was under way and he didn't give a shit. He was having too much fun.

They wanted a live performance, but most importantly, they wanted to have FUN and dance. Without worring that I was going to f-it all up.

I wanted to preform live. Without worriying that I would f-it all up. L7 wasn't going to let that happen, so I compromised. And I didn't have to lie about it. AND I got to dance a little bit with some foxy girls.

Every one was happy. I was a bit bummed because I put so much time into the thing, but oh, well. That's what I get for thinking Live 7 was a Live performance application.

my very long 2 cents.
15" PB 2.5 Ghz, 4 Gig RAM, 750 GB HD, Live 9 still no cue points or program change messages?!?. Doesn't do shit.

kabuki
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Post by kabuki » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:55 pm

It must be noted that the stuff COSM does blows my mind. That guy really does preform magic.

His stuff sounds pre-recorded but most evidently is not. It's fun to watch AND fun to dance to.

But if he pulled a Peter Hook and just stood up there twisting a single knob like it was his first nipple, I would have to say no. That wouldn't cut it. He might as well just put on a CD and get a drink.
15" PB 2.5 Ghz, 4 Gig RAM, 750 GB HD, Live 9 still no cue points or program change messages?!?. Doesn't do shit.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:07 am

kabuki wrote:I had a similar situation happen to me recently: allow me to elaborate.

I was hired to DJ a wedding by a co-worker. They wanted some really fun music "really mixed up. Not just playing one song all the way to the end and playing another song..." They wanted mashups, mixups, and dancing. I knew I wasn't getting paid for shit. I wanted to do it for fun, but I put a TON of work prepping for the gig. I warped almost 300 songs worth of disco, rock, hiphop, pop, big band, and swing. I rented the PA well ahead of time and set it up to nail the EQ settings, and I even edited all of the bad words out so grandma wouldn't shit her diaper everytime 50 Cent dropped the N-Bomb. I worked my ass off.

Unfortunately, Live 7 wasn't working as hard as I was. Glitches, pops, audio drops and instability. I was faced with a TOUGH decision. Either play "Live", the way I really, REALLY wanted to, and risk crapping all over their beautiful day.

Or

I could pre-record a live set, make adjustments, load the iPod with a rendered CYA backup, and hit play in Live...

Or

Play the pre-rendered set and focus on the MCing I had to do as well?

Ultimately, I played the pre-recorded set. The girls (and there were a ton of them, some grae-A fine-ass meat) were dancing their asses off. The guys were having fun because, when momma's happy, everyone's happy. I told the groom the situation after the daning was under way and he didn't give a shit. He was having too much fun.

They wanted a live performance, but most importantly, they wanted to have FUN and dance. Without worring that I was going to f-it all up.

I wanted to preform live. Without worriying that I would f-it all up. L7 wasn't going to let that happen, so I compromised. And I didn't have to lie about it. AND I got to dance a little bit with some foxy girls.

Every one was happy. I was a bit bummed because I put so much time into the thing, but oh, well. That's what I get for thinking Live 7 was a Live performance application.

my very long 2 cents.
Great story, Marcus...did you use the Monome?
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beats me
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Post by beats me » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:08 am

kabuki wrote:It must be noted that the stuff COSM does blows my mind. That guy really does preform magic.
COSM is amazing but there's a problem right there. You can't hold everybody up to that standard. Electronica composers are held up to a higher standard than traditional musicians in some cases and I'm not exactly sure why. You could go to a rock show and the guitarist could play the 4 easiest chords ever invneted the entire show or ride the muted downtuned E string and people would go nuts and come out saying it was an amazing show. My grandmother could play Nirvana songs.

But stick a guy in front of a computer with a couple controllers and you expect him to flawlessly perform the work of an entire band live, which by the way was actaully performed by a computer, and at the same time look like the rock star guitarist who is mostly just posing.

kabuki
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Post by kabuki » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:16 am

nebulae wrote:Great story, Marcus...did you use the Monome?
I would have if Live wasn't shitting on my plans.

I did have it with me, bit all it did was look pretty.

For the record, I DIDN'T pretend to be turning knobs and playing tracks. I ran the PA, made sure everything sounded good, and MCd the party. I danced quite a bit (which I am much better at than DJing), which seemed to get people into it a bit more. And I had a few beers too.

Good time.

Maybe when the Abs fix my app I will try to do it right again.
15" PB 2.5 Ghz, 4 Gig RAM, 750 GB HD, Live 9 still no cue points or program change messages?!?. Doesn't do shit.

Poster
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Re: thinks : is a good faker equivalent to a good performer?

Post by Poster » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:16 am

Angstrom wrote:does it matter?
no.. people had a great time..
yes.. zero integrity..

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:17 am

^^ I hear ya, man, I hear ya...I don't perform with L7 at all. But I'm looking to a computer upgrade, so we'll see.
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kabuki
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Post by kabuki » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:18 am

beats me wrote:
kabuki wrote:It must be noted that the stuff COSM does blows my mind. That guy really does preform magic.
COSM is amazing but there's a problem right there. You can't hold everybody up to that standard. Electronica composers are held up to a higher standard than traditional musicians in some cases and I'm not exactly sure why. You could go to a rock show and the guitarist could play the 4 easiest chords ever invneted the entire show or ride the muted downtuned E string and people would go nuts and come out saying it was an amazing show. My grandmother could play Nirvana songs.

But stick a guy in front of a computer with a couple controllers and you expect him to flawlessly perform the work of an entire band live, which by the way was actaully performed by a computer, and at the same time look like the rock star guitarist who is mostly just posing.
I gree a bit. Folks expect that becasue a computer is involved, its easier, so we can do "more". In a way, they are right, but we have to be smart about it.

Or we could play the whole gig with a KEYTAR and kill em all.
15" PB 2.5 Ghz, 4 Gig RAM, 750 GB HD, Live 9 still no cue points or program change messages?!?. Doesn't do shit.

b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:19 am

I just straight up don't like being lied to.
If there's nothing wrong with pretending to perform music live, then why not advertise it as such.

TONIGHT AT MELKWEG PRETENDING TO PLAY MUSIC LIVE: CHRIS CLARK
DON'T MISS IT
TICKETS e16.50 AT THE DOOR
spreader of butter

Poster
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Post by Poster » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:22 am

b0unce wrote:I just straight up don't like being lied to.
If there's nothing wrong with pretending to perform music live, then why not advertise it as such.

TONIGHT AT MELKWEG PRETENDING TO PLAY MUSIC LIVE: CHRIS CLARK
DON'T MISS IT
TICKETS e16.50 AT THE DOOR
spot on..

beats me
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Post by beats me » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:22 am

kabuki wrote:
nebulae wrote:Great story, Marcus...did you use the Monome?
I would have if Live wasn't shitting on my plans.

I did have it with me, bit all it did was look pretty.

For the record, I DIDN'T pretend to be turning knobs and playing tracks. I ran the PA, made sure everything sounded good, and MCd the party. I danced quite a bit (which I am much better at than DJing), which seemed to get people into it a bit more. And I had a few beers too.

Good time.

Maybe when the Abs fix my app I will try to do it right again.
I think the true testament to your great performance is that you somehow managed to avoid the scourge of wedding DJ scene, the drunken song requests with zero clue to the current mood of the dance floor. How on earth did you pull that off?

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