running vocals through LIVE without causing feedback

[Cache]

Anyone got good suggestions or tips on avoiding howling feedback when running vox chains through LIVE?

stage setup is vox up frot, drummer behind or to side/behind and bass player beside vox.

would copying a venue's hardware settings help?

using a gate means that low level vox are sometimes cut out...or is this just a bad gate setting

[pepezabala]

you probably have to adjust everything during soundcheck at the venuw. We made the experience that we had adjusted a nice voicesetting at home, but it was unusable on stage, the heavy compression we had would lead to feedbacks. A notch-filter can help by eliminating the feedback-frequency. Also take care that the monitors are placed properly, that you use microphones that are not too receptive to the sides etc. That is one reason that shure sm58s are used everywhere.

[Khazul]

And FFS - make sure you PA is out in front of the mics, not behind them and be very careful where your floor monitor are pointing - they are often the cause of feedback problems rather than a properly setup PA - lazy vocalists holding the mic low when they aint single for a few bars, and in holding it low, end up holding it near their floor monitor... - grrrr

That way the PA is pointing away from the mics, and the mic is pointing away from the PA, thie mic is kept away from the stage monitors, also having a dense non reflective backdrop can help a little along with the right EQ etc - ie to cut reflections coming back across the venue and bouncing off the stage rear wall and into the mics.

Also get a feedback supressor in your PA chain before the power amps - hate to mmention the B word, but actually their auto feedback supressors are quite useful and cheap.

And as mentioned - sm58 or other similar unidirectional dynamic mics tend to be the best for live use.

[Timur]

Which mic are you using anyway? Is it cardoic (monitors should be pointing to the very rear of the mic aka 180°) or hyper/supercardoic (monitors should be pointing at the rear of mic from an angle depending on the polar pattern, but usually not at the very rear). Teach your singer not to hold them hands around the capsule unless he/she really knows how to work with that. It will kill the sound-rejection of the microfon and even push some frequencies (can be used for certain effects if used properly).

Each room comes with its own resonances, so you need to use an EQ to cut feedbacking frequencies. The easiest way is to just use a 31-band equ that allows for quick and dirty adjustments. Some of those (like the rather inexpensive Behringer) will even show you which frequencies are feedbacking if you lack the experience to identifies those frequencies by ears. There are some feedback-destroyers out there, which in reality are just automated parametric equilizers. I tried one of those a few years back, but it didn't work out right. Maybe the newer generations work better (my old Behringer failed badly).

Using a Gate seems to be a good idea. If your low level vox are not passing through then you simply set it too aggressive. If the band sound is too loud onstage (usually) then try to make the drums quieter somehow (or use E-Drums for small stages even). The gate should only close when the singer is backing off the mic and doesn't sing at all. Also your singer really needs to be kissing/eating the mic in a loud live enviroment as long as you cannot lower the on-stage volume.

When using compression on the vocals make sure to drive the compressor as hot as possible without distortion and go for mild compression so that you don't have to crank the makeup-gain. Also try slower attack and fast release rates. It may miss some hard consonansts and cut some tails then, but better to have short pops and tails than to have long feedback.

If you're using delay or reverb on your vocal signal, try using a dry mix (or at least lesser wet mix) on the monitors if possible. Much of the reverb gets eaten by onstage noise anyway.

Last but not least, try in-ear monitoring if you can afford it. It's both a blessing and a curse, but one of the blessings is not only that it helps with feedback and makes your singer hear herself better, but it also allows for better movement around the stage.

[Timur]

Another good idea for (smaller) stages. Hang some heavy curtain behind your drummer that both helps preventing some frequencies from bouncing off the back wall and can show some cool band logo.

[Cache]

thanks a lot for the replies folks.

i'm using a Sennheiser 845 as it suits my voice better.

yes, using a 32band EQ would help me but if you just get a line-level check before you go on... you don't get time to EQ much

with the Supercardioid pattern in the 845, should the monitor be pointing at the bottom of the mic, or the rear of the mic? if i understand this correctly, then the mic should be either pointed at angle to me (optionA bottom of mic) or pointed parallel to the floor (optionB rear of mic)? which is it?


I'll keep my signal chain and try and 32band eq as the last fx in the chain and hopefully this can kill any bad feedback

the venue resonance really has had big impact too - i've played in places with horrible echoey walls! boo to them.

curtains behind drummer are a good idea too....

[Timur]

Inexpensive Behringer analog EQs with feedback detection:

31 band:

http://www.behringer.com/FBQ6200/index.cfm?lang=ger
http://www.behringer.com/FBQ3102/index.cfm?lang=ger

15 band:

http://www.behringer.com/FBQ1502/index.cfm?lang=ger

Digital EQ with feedback destroyers:

http://www.behringer.com/DEQ1024/index.cfm?lang=ger


Speaker placement for Sennheiser E845 (supercardoic):

From above: Place speakers left and right of the mic at angles of appr. 120 degree from the middle of the mic pop filter (front of the capsule, remove the pop filter to find the exact position).



From the side: Place speaker in front of the singer at an angle of appr. 120 degreee from the middle of the mic pop filter.



As you can see on the polar diagram only certain frequencies are totally cut at these angles, while other are more or less attenuated. Also supercardoic mics will hear sound from the rear end (pointing away from the singer), so teach watch out where your are pointing the thing to (like avoiding reflecting walls and speakers right behind the mic).

EQing some of those frequencies out that are not rejected by the mics pattern could also be a good idea if you need to raise monitor level without suffering feedback.

[Khazul]

Ive used a Behringer DEQ2496 for live autmatic feedback supression - its pretty good - especially if you let it do a feedback test in your sound check - just dont do it at home if you ever want to see your cat again...

It basically auto-programs very steep PEQ notches, so you hardly notice what it takes out.

[Timur]

I own the old "Feedback Destroyers Pro", but wasn't very impressed. It tends to spread the same frequency over several filters bands (like 3 x -6dB at 1000 Hz) instead of just further lowering one filter band (like 1 x -18dB at 1000 Hz). It cannot produce a test-signal either and that may be the problem.

[Timur]

Also try slower attack and fast release rates. It may miss some hard consonansts and cut some tails then, but better to have short pops and tails than to have long feedback.

Error here. Fast release rates wont cut tails, to the contrary. But it may be that you need to use slower release rates in order to keep the signal down a bit and so avoid feedback buildup with tails (especially reverbed ones). Though usually that's what you're using a gate for. Try to find the right balance between compressor and gate, not easy I know, but worth the effort. Make the gate really only close when you're not singing and push the voice only so much for low volume passages that you can be heard over the instruments (teach your drummer to play quiet in quiet passages ).

If "slower attack" rates (by which I mean anything slower than 10 ms, so not really slow) prove to be a problem (like distortion in loud parts) then first try to back off the mic in loud parts, only if that doesn't work change the attack of the compressor to react faster. You don't want all transients to be overcompressed, because you lose the dynamics then. What use in pushing your voice to powerful oomph if the compressor kills it right away?!

[mikemc]

What kind of monitoring are you using: on stage or in-ear, or both? As mentioned, PA speackers out front, point onstage monitors at the people who need them, use in-ear for the vocalist(s), and point/use the mic in a way that avoids picking up the onstage monitors...

[sweetjesus]

i have one of those mics, i have to get very far from any sound source because of how much gain they need for a healthy tone to shine thru..

[Timur]

Sorry, I gave you the wrong angles, I meant angles of appr. 120 degree (like shown in the images), not 180 degree (you would use that for cardoic mics).

[jeskola]

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