Future Live 4 Mac users who want more beef/cpu just buy a PC

steve-o · Post by **steve-o** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:11 pm

Anonymous wrote:
steve-o wrote:
Kodama wrote:It's because my iBook begins to drag just launching Reason and Live and running a few instruments.

I'm not like gamers that want 100fps they will never see or engineers that want 192khz they will never hear, I really get the too slow messages when trying to do stuff.

The reverb takes ~25% of my CPU just launching, so I thought it would be a good start. Now, like I said I'm thinking part of problem is the Live port (especially the reverb) that has issues.

I tested Reason itself, and it was 2x the speed, which is more in line with what you'd expect from 2x the clock.

Not to forget that extra cpu over what I need means I can start thinking of my computer as a real time low latencey fx processor at the same time.

::i'm sorry, not pickin on you in particular... at all... but these threads :about which is better are giving me the shizizinits... really dude, when are you gonna use 28 reverbs on a track??!??

i know... just a test... rar rar... but really...
All Ableton has to do is Altivec-enable the effects. They've optimized the audioengine, which is a good thing, but failed to altivec-enable the effects. We clamored for a faster version of live on mac, but forget to exactly specify what we wanted to be faster, and that's the effects, like reverb. Personally, I would love to be able to run a reverb on every track if I wanted to.

But as it is, I can't.
you're just wrong. Read what they said about it.

I did. They said altivec would not be a big advantage to the audio engine, and that altivec is used mainly for effects. They even said they might do this later. You're just wrong.

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:27 pm

nope. someone said all this and they replied the audio engine INCLUDES the Live's FX - they will benefit

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:52 pm

Mac/Pc... this never ends. Logic/Protools, this never ends. Facts are facts, and here are the facts.

PC's- are much faster than macs, are usually somewhat 'ugly', are much lower priced, and are much more common.
Mac's- are much slower than pc's, are very pretty and 'elegant', are much higher priced compared to pc's, and are less common, bringing there 'cool' status up a bunch.

now, when selecting a computer, you select it for your needs. I own a PB 15" G3. I use it for surfing the net wirelessly, showing clients to 'impress' them with my mac, then after there over seeing I own a mac, I move over to my pc for power. when my girlfriend comes over, I hand her the PB to surf the net and check her email, she looks 'elegant' as it is, so the mac suite's her, and makes me want to jump on her a little more. very cool, but un-needed.

when I go into my studio, I have a athlon64 FX-51. which completely blows away all my friends dual G5's. Do I 'need' this much power? nope. is it nice to have when I load a waves IR-1 needed? most definitly. My G3 800mhz hits 100% cpu when I put 1 waves IR-1 on it. My studio computer hits around 11% with the IR-1. That's almost 10 times faster. No, I don't need to run the IR-1. But why not? I feel 'limitless' with my pc, any plug-in, soft synth, or anything I can load, never worrying about my computer maxing out. I have my buffer set to 64, with 1ms latency in/out, running 30-40 channels of audio, running anything and everything I want at any time. my pc never "max'd" out. When I'm working on a track, I don't want to have to bounce to disk and work on just a wav file, I don't want to bounce down that soft synth I'm using, to free up some cpu power, I don't want to remove my IR-1 and use a standar reverb. i want to have full control of everything on the fly. No mac on this planet is capable of doing anything near that.

what it comes down too, mac's look damn cool, impress people, and make you look more 'serious' about your work. but when it comes down to it, they just don't 'put out' well enough. OSX is amazing! I love working in osx, but not enough to suffer power, resulting in creativity.

Buy a mac, use it for things here and there. when you want to get serious use the PC. I'm not a mac hater, I love OSX, and the integration of hardware/software apple has. I think it's amazing! But when it comes down to needed some overhead, they just can't hold there place compared to a pc.

anyways, mac fans... flame me away now. But I'm just telling the truth.

Alex Reynolds · Post by **Alex Reynolds** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:04 pm

Anonymous wrote:Buy a mac, use it for things here and there. when you want to get serious use the PC. I'm not a mac hater, I love OSX, and the integration of hardware/software apple has. I think it's amazing! But when it comes down to needed some overhead, they just can't hold there place compared to a pc.

anyways, mac fans... flame me away now. But I'm just telling the truth.

I won't flame you but I will point you to these creative folks, who are "serious" in the "real world" of music making:

• AGF + Sue Costabile (1)
• AGF + Sue Costabile (2)
• Alex Walsh (1)
• Alex Walsh (2)
• Vytear (1)
• Vytear (2)
• Vytear (3)
• http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#46441
• http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#46480
• http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#46148

Don't let facts get in the way of a passionate opinion!

On that point, if you're such a "serious" professional, why not log in, instead of trolling from the comfort of a guest account?

claudek · Post by **claudek** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:12 pm

I don't see why Mac users are so closed minded sometimes.
All I was saying was Live...(LIVE) runs awesome on a PC..
I can get like 30 tracks and tons of FX and still over head..
No sluggish starts..it is seamless..
Ok..I could on a G5 too, but I simply will not pay that much..nor can I.

I still like my Mac too..for Logic and other toys..
It is best of both Worlds..

dfusion · Post by **dfusion** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:48 pm

Bottom line...

When performing live with a laptop the PC gives a serious feeling of uncertainty. XP is in a decent state of stability for now but this will never last. XP requires A LOT of baby sitting. When SP2 is released who knows what will break. When Longhorn comes out who knows what to expect. Anyone who has MSDN access will see seperate versions of XP 64-bit for AMD and Intel. It's just all going to blow up again. Enjoy your setup for now but as the processors change generations don't expect Microsoft to come out of the gates with rock solid stability. It will be like the whole 95/98/ME -> 2000/XP transition. Painful.

For those who knock the G5 just remember most apps are still written for G4/G5 compatability. As time presses on you will see more apps heavily optimized for G5. Most likely when G5 laptops come out to market. Apple has handled the compatability of OS X and applications very graciously during the CPU leap as there are a lot of G4 machines in the world. Microsoft, Intel, and AMD are three totally seperate companies who all have their own agendas. Most importantly - Microsoft's main focus is the server market (2003, SQL, Exchange, Office), Intel cares about robbing the HP-UX, Solaris, Tru64, and AIX markets to run Linux on their machines, and AMD wants to be the cheaper Intel alternative. Nowhere in there does anyone care about artists. Apple, on the other hand, does because that's their bread and butter.

FaX-01 · Post by **FaX-01** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:26 am

All I can say is - what ever !
I've got better things too worry about than ones personal choice of platform.
If it works for YOU surely that's all that matter isn't it ?

aljen · Post by **aljen** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:09 am

The question is not "are Macs expensive" - the question ist "are PCs extremely cheap". Of course one can go out and buy a 1000 euro PC with everything you need. You can even obtain one at the ALDI supermarket in the downtown.

So this is cleared. You cannot buy a desktop Mac for 1000 Euro in the supermarket.

But that's where the comparision stops.

My current desktop Mac is a B&W G3. It was bought 1999 and was 1550 Euro cheap. This means, the machine is over five years old and still works fine. I am running 9.2.2 as well as the latest X 10.3 on it, with Ableton Live, Logic Audio, Reason - and with all the graphic design apps I am professionally working with, you know, the usual Adobe box plus Painter 8 plus some animation apps.

1550 (Euro) divided by 5 (years) makes exactly 310 (Euro p.a.) average cost of ownership. Even considering the fact I've bought some extra stuff for this machine over the years, id doesn't make much more, since they are external peripherals I can (and do) use with other Macs too.

The only "big thing" I've built into the Mac, besides large harddisk, is the Sonnet G4 upgrade. So even if calculatet roughly, this all makes EUR 400 p.a. average cost of ownership.

Now it's your turn: Does anybody know a PC which is over 5 years old and running Windows XP along with the latest appplication of this size? I mean the real thing, not just a 5 years old cabinet with completely new inner life.

A windows PC becomes obsolete after a year or two! This is where your money go.

So, my just 0.02 Euro

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:33 pm

aljen wrote: Now it's your turn: Does anybody know a PC which is over 5 years old and running Windows XP along with the latest appplication of this size? I mean the real thing, not just a 5 years old cabinet with completely new inner life.

A windows PC becomes obsolete after a year or two! This is where your money go.

So, my just 0.02 Euro

Sure! My PIII 800 I bought about 4-5 years ago works perfectly fine with live, protools, and anything else I load onto it. It's running windows xp perfectly fine, has 512mb of ram and I haven't added a thing to it. I'm actually on it right now! And looking at my network connections properties, it's been on continuously for 2.5 weeks now, with no problems... so, it's definitly stable. Too boot, I built it myself and total cost was around $1000.00 canadian at the time.

Your excuse for a windows pc becoming obsolete after a year or two is such a "mac user" quote... looking for a reason to justify there overpriced, slow computer with un-inteligent comments like that...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:39 pm

dfusion wrote:Bottom line...

When performing live with a laptop the PC gives a serious feeling of uncertainty. XP is in a decent state of stability for now but this will never last. XP requires A LOT of baby sitting. When SP2 is released who knows what will break. When Longhorn comes out who knows what to expect. Anyone who has MSDN access will see seperate versions of XP 64-bit for AMD and Intel. It's just all going to blow up again. Enjoy your setup for now but as the processors change generations don't expect Microsoft to come out of the gates with rock solid stability. It will be like the whole 95/98/ME -> 2000/XP transition. Painful.

For those who knock the G5 just remember most apps are still written for G4/G5 compatability. As time presses on you will see more apps heavily optimized for G5. Most likely when G5 laptops come out to market. Apple has handled the compatability of OS X and applications very graciously during the CPU leap as there are a lot of G4 machines in the world. Microsoft, Intel, and AMD are three totally seperate companies who all have their own agendas. Most importantly - Microsoft's main focus is the server market (2003, SQL, Exchange, Office), Intel cares about robbing the HP-UX, Solaris, Tru64, and AIX markets to run Linux on their machines, and AMD wants to be the cheaper Intel alternative. Nowhere in there does anyone care about artists. Apple, on the other hand, does because that's their bread and butter.

Uncertanty? looks like you have the uncertainty making hilarious comments like that! I think you might be "uncertain" about spending so much on your mac, and getting nothing but a slow computer that looks cool! I feel sorry for you... we'll anyways, have fun working in live when your computer maxes out with 2 tracks playing with 1 reverb!

haha.... anyways, yeah... buy a pc.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:46 pm

[/quote]
I won't flame you but I will point you to these creative folks, who are "serious" in the "real world" of music making:

• AGF + Sue Costabile (1)
• AGF + Sue Costabile (2)
• Alex Walsh (1)
• Alex Walsh (2)
• Vytear (1)
• Vytear (2)
• Vytear (3)
• http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#46441
• http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#46480
• http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#46148

Don't let facts get in the way of a passionate opinion!

On that point, if you're such a "serious" professional, why not log in, instead of trolling from the comfort of a guest account?[/quote]

we'll, I've never heard of any of those artists in my life. Nor do I care about them. And also, really don't give a shit if they use mac. Anyone who uses a mac to me, is brainwashed. You people are spoonfed garbage and buy into it. Thinking your "mac" is so superior in this and that. When all reality is, is that the computer is slow, way to expensive, and brainwashing into thinking apple is amazing. Typical human action. Belive the hype, buy into it... I feel bad for you.

Also, I don't have an account. Nor do i need or want one. I visit the board once or twice a month to check up on things. I have much better things too do than register on a web board...

steve-o · Post by **steve-o** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:24 pm

forge wrote:nope. someone said all this and they replied the audio engine INCLUDES the Live's FX - they will benefit

Yes, yes, I understand - the audio engine update will benefit the effects - my point is that altivec will greatly boost the effects, but not the audio engine. That's what I believe Ableton said.

So we're both right - have a beer on me!

prinzali · Post by **prinzali** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:07 pm

Anonymous wrote:
dfusion wrote:Bottom line...

When performing live with a laptop the PC gives a serious feeling of uncertainty. XP is in a decent state of stability for now but this will never last. XP requires A LOT of baby sitting. When SP2 is released who knows what will break. When Longhorn comes out who knows what to expect. Anyone who has MSDN access will see seperate versions of XP 64-bit for AMD and Intel. It's just all going to blow up again. Enjoy your setup for now but as the processors change generations don't expect Microsoft to come out of the gates with rock solid stability. It will be like the whole 95/98/ME -> 2000/XP transition. Painful.

For those who knock the G5 just remember most apps are still written for G4/G5 compatability. As time presses on you will see more apps heavily optimized for G5. Most likely when G5 laptops come out to market. Apple has handled the compatability of OS X and applications very graciously during the CPU leap as there are a lot of G4 machines in the world. Microsoft, Intel, and AMD are three totally seperate companies who all have their own agendas. Most importantly - Microsoft's main focus is the server market (2003, SQL, Exchange, Office), Intel cares about robbing the HP-UX, Solaris, Tru64, and AIX markets to run Linux on their machines, and AMD wants to be the cheaper Intel alternative. Nowhere in there does anyone care about artists. Apple, on the other hand, does because that's their bread and butter.
Uncertanty? looks like you have the uncertainty making hilarious comments like that! I think you might be "uncertain" about spending so much on your mac, and getting nothing but a slow computer that looks cool! I feel sorry for you... we'll anyways, have fun working in live when your computer maxes out with 2 tracks playing with 1 reverb!

haha.... anyways, yeah... buy a pc.

Hey Guest(!)

How old are you?

-André

Alex Reynolds · Post by **Alex Reynolds** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:04 pm

Anonymous wrote:we'll, I've never heard of any of those artists in my life. Nor do I care about them.

How ironic. I've heard of these people, seen them play several times. But I haven't seen you play. Are you an artist or a real musician, or just another punk teenager, trolling on his parent's computer?

Anonymous wrote:And also, really don't give a shit if they use mac.

I don't care either. But it is interesting that about 90% of the electronic music I watch and listen to happens to be made on Macs. I don't go to "Mac" music shows. I go to shows and that's what I see.

*shrug*

And I watch a lot of it. I write about it. I talk to the people who make it. Feel free to send me a private message about that if you like. Call me arrogant if you like but I think my observations are more significant and credible than yours, since you can't bother to qualify yourself.

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who uses a mac to me, is brainwashed. You people are spoonfed garbage and buy into it. Thinking your "mac" is so superior in this and that. When all reality is, is that the computer is slow, way to expensive, and brainwashing into thinking apple is amazing. Typical human action. Belive the hype, buy into it... I feel bad for you.

I don't know who you are, or who you think you are. But you can't dismiss reality just because of your opinions. The reality is that a majority of professional musicians use Macs, whether it is a technically superior platform or not.

Anonymous wrote:Also, I don't have an account. Nor do i need or want one. I visit the board once or twice a month to check up on things. I have much better things too do than register on a web board...

Clearly you're a busy man. But making or watching real music is not one of those important things on your to-do list, it seems.

Cheers,
Alex

Kodama · Post by **Kodama** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:15 pm

The one thing I learned over the years is that it doens't matter if the actual CPU chipset is 'smarter' or not.

If you put enough money and demand behind a simple problem like speed, Intel will continually make their inferior processors faster and therefore superior to you and me.

With PPC, most PPCs are made for embedded devices that don't need blazing speed, IBM uses PPC in about 25% of it's machines, so the resources and demand are just not there to move things ahead very quickly.