would you use Ableton on Linux if possible and.......

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
adventurepants_
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Post by adventurepants_ » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:59 pm

Martyn wrote:
adventurepants_ wrote: serious?
Yes.

Maybe not for music and some other specialist apps, Adobe for instance, but for general computing tasks? Definitely yes.

There's not going to be a "year for Linux" this ones a slow burner :wink:

I've been a happy XP user for many years so I'm not going to sit here dissing it but Linux is evolving in a good way at quite a pace and I think that's a good thing.
completely agree that linux is a good thing, i like it a lot. i just get sick of the hype from a microscopic yet very loud part of the computer world.

Lucidity
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Post by Lucidity » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:01 am

The only reason I don't currently run Ubuntu on my laptop is because Ableton wouldn't work on it. I've got some experience with WINE, but from various attempts and other people's feedback, Ableton currently doesn't work on it.

I don't see how it would be that hard really though, surely all you have to do is alter the OSX version, I mean both OSX and Linux are UNIX derivatives, surely there's a lot of common ground?

This would be brilliant if it happened, hopefully it does soon!

Ableton already works very well to be honest under XP. I can run ina very minimal XP setup and Ableton runs really well, with huge live sets all loaded into RAM. Vista however causes Live to run very poorly for me. Volume meters are really slow and audio drops out constantly and responsiveness is very low.

Make a Linux version!

Martyn
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Post by Martyn » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:07 am

adventurepants_ wrote: i just get sick of the hype from a microscopic yet very loud part of the computer world.
Yeah, me too, it's just hype though, anyone who really knows the score realises that it's going to be be a long term thing even if it catches on at all beyond a small percentage of geeks.

hereschenes
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Post by hereschenes » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:16 am

Tone Deft wrote:I fell out of love with geeking on an OS decades ago.
+1. I used to run Gentoo, which was fun in a way-too-geeky sort of way, and at the time, I had partially bought into all the self-righteous Slashdot-esque Linux/open source doctrines as well. (I think differently these days).

Then one day I had an epiphany - I was spending all my time just making sure my computer actually worked, as opposed to actually using the computer to do interesting and useful stuff. Since then, I've scrubbed Linux (apart from a brief flirtation with Ubuntu) and stuck with Windows and OSX, because I want to do other stuff with my time.

So all things being equal, with respect to Linux and its community, I would not use a Live Linux port in the forseeable future, even if it was available right now. I'd much rather think that the Abes were investing their time into shoring up the existing product, adding sorely missing and oft-requested features (eg. 128 MIDI parameters limitation, session view automation) etc. etc.

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:40 am

I've pretty much decided that I'm going to get a new ThinkPad sometime this year for general usage. Since I don't use Windows, right now this'd mean my main computer would no longer run Live. I wouldn't like that, but then I'm emphatically not interested in a new Mac either.. A Linux port would make everything a lot simpler for me...
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
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Post by synnack » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:56 am

Lucidity wrote: I don't see how it would be that hard really though, surely all you have to do is alter the OSX version, I mean both OSX and Linux are UNIX derivatives, surely there's a lot of common ground?
Not so easy. The ins and outs of a particular Unix or Unix-like OS can vary greatly.

The BSD kernel (from which OSX came) and Linux are pretty different in the way they handle audio, drivers, filesystems, processes, memory, etc..

Even if that were not the case, supporting another platform for a vendor is an expensive thing. It's not just "making it work", it's the cost of documentation, support, QA testing blah blah blah.

Look at it this way. You are running Ableton. You have 100, hell lets even say 1000 users who would like, and even PAY for a Linux version.

You have 10,000 users and many more potentially of the Windows and Mac versions who demand tons of new features from you.

Do you take even one person off the large Windows/Mac market to port your software to linux? When none of your competitors support that either?

Even one developer trying to make a linux version for the 100 people that would buy it is a waste of time needed to support the many more that use Windows or Mac.
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Lucidity
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Post by Lucidity » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:56 am

Can they? OS X is capable of using JACK, and Ardour, same as Linux. That's a pretty integral similarity to me.

Yes, that is quite right, and I realise that whilst both OS' are different in design fundamentally it would not be a paradigm shift to move the program between offshoots of UNIX, like it is to have Ableton on both Windows and OS X.

Yes, I know that the number of users that would be interested in running Ableton would initially not be significant, but on the flip side, is that not because no one professional has done it already? There are programs like Ardour and Jerkoster which are ProTools like in design, and then there are the various loop players, but Ableton Live within a Linux environment would trounce most of them and bring it's legendary stability to a much needed area. I find Windows can be a bit quirky on stage, for many reasons.

Eve Online developed a WINE shell for it's game to run within a Linux environment, and it does so reasonably well. the same might be possible for Ableton.

doc holiday
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Post by doc holiday » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:12 am

Tone Deft wrote:XP - works on my machine.

I fell out of love with geeking on an OS decades ago.

for some reason i feel windows requires more geeking then linux

adventurepants_
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Post by adventurepants_ » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:34 am

doc holiday wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:XP - works on my machine.

I fell out of love with geeking on an OS decades ago.

for some reason i feel windows requires more geeking then linux
that statement is baffling to me. linux is pretty easy to get running, and there is lots of support on the net, but it takes a reasonable time to get things running that work instantly on a well setup windows machine.

over time, an unsecured xp install will accumulate a lot of crap and spyware and malware that the linux install wont, but theres plenty of freeware available that fixes that for the slightly clued in user.


but would i like to see a linux version of Live working with the hardware on the kernel level? you bet i fucking would. maybe we could get tight midi timing out of our freaking computers then.

never going to happen though. not until people start really using linux for pron! :)

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:06 am

tempus3r wrote:Not so easy. The ins and outs of a particular Unix or Unix-like OS can vary greatly.

The BSD kernel (from which OSX came) and Linux are pretty different in the way they handle audio, drivers, filesystems, processes, memory, etc..
Thing is, this is all abstracted away. You don't really have to worry about the differences between the BSDs and Linux and commercial UNIX for most day-to-day stuff. That's why we have high level programming languages!

The problem is APIs. While OS X is of course a UNIX underneath, nobody really deals with that unless they're porting or going for cross-platform compatibility.
I don't see how it would be that hard really though, surely all you have to do is alter the OSX version, I mean both OSX and Linux are UNIX derivatives, surely there's a lot of common ground?
It would surprise me if any of Live's OS Xisms deal with the UNIX APIs - remember that Live once ran on OS9. All the stuff that's platform specific - file related things, application startup, audio i/o - is most likely written against Apple-specific Carbon APIs, not POSIX/UNIX. That means it doesn't help in porting to GNU/Linux systems at all.
Lucidity wrote:The only reason I don't currently run Ubuntu on my laptop is because Ableton wouldn't work on it. I've got some experience with WINE, but from various attempts and other people's feedback, Ableton currently doesn't work on it.
I think the problem is mostly audio output. Someone posted a screenshot here of Live actually on screen on Linux, but he said he couldn't get the clock to run or get sound out (the two are related I'm quite sure - Live syncs its beat to the clock in the soundcard). I'm not sure WINE provides anything but the most basic support for audio output. But I don't really know much about WINE since I don't have an Intel-based computer newer than a Pentium III.

What I think could be done, though, is add Jack support in addition to all the Windows-specific stuff for audio output, and use WINE libraries to actually get the programme running. Barring an actual port to add 'real' support for GNU/Linux systems, I think that's the way to go.

If Ableton don't do it themselves, though, nothing's stopping a dedicated individual from adding a Windows Audio -> Jack compatibility library to Jack...
Lucidity wrote:Can they? OS X is capable of using JACK, and Ardour, same as Linux. That's a pretty integral similarity to me.
I think both those run on Windows now, too.

Again, while GNU/Linux and OS X have a lot in common architecturally and under the hood, the actual code that makes up the lion's share of OS X are 100% OS X specific...
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

friend_kami
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Post by friend_kami » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:05 pm

hell yes i would. been asking for linux port for a while now.
why?

because that would finally get me to switch from windows permanently, the only reason im still running windows is because live doesnt work with linux.

surely my xp is quite stable, but to compare windows xp to linux is like comparing a sour apple with a fruit salad.

Precision
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Post by Precision » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:46 pm

friend_kami wrote:hell yes i would. been asking for linux port for a while now.
why?

because that would finally get me to switch from windows permanently, the only reason im still running windows is because live doesnt work with linux.

surely my xp is quite stable, but to compare windows xp to linux is like comparing a sour apple with a fruit salad.
Pretty much sums it up for me :)

I've been using Linux for around a decade, mostly at work (scientific research), so I know the OS pretty well. The only thing I use XP for any more is music production; otherwise, I'd be Ubuntu'd all the way.

But I'd also prefer Live to be developed further, feature-wise, on XP/OSX rather than be ported to Linux. Much of the appeal is due to open-source software, which is completely different thing to proprietary stuff. Live doesn't really fit into this idea, so I guess I'll still be here swearing at XP for the next few years.... :P
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Post by Moody » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:53 pm

Let me try to paint a real picture of how Linux and an application like Live could be the simplest method of deploying the application. Currently, Ableton is fighting many battles to make Live work for everyone. (or atleast for the majority)

Why? Because, of Windows and all the hardware platforms people are attempting to run it on combined with the efforts to stablize it on Apple's various hardware and OS platforms. This is a difficult task. Hell, it is difficult for Microsoft to get everything they own to work together.

So, everybody is thinking that putting Linux into the mix could further confuse the issues. Obviously with the current approach it would but, here is the catch.... If, Ableton provided a Hardware Compatibility List (including desktops, laptops and audio interfaces) and built there own Linux (or any kernel) Kernel with Live as the exclusive GUI the world of variables become a lot smaller and become controlled variables.

So the experience now goes like this. I check the HCL, buy my compatible hardware which will most likely already have Winblows or OSX which you can use for whatever you want and now I install my Live but this time it installs itself parallel to the OS as a bootable option. So now I boot into an enviroment that is completely under the control of the Abes. This is what most of us are trying to achieve anyways when using full screen mode but, we cut out all the middle men.

Eh, who knows I may just be a dreamer but I am not the only one. 8)
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Post by mdk » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:21 pm

Moody wrote:..and now I install my Live but this time it installs itself parallel to the OS as a bootable option. So now I boot into an enviroment that is completely under the control of the Abes.
i've been thinking the same thing, the beauty of linux is that the whole OS is open, so why not take one of the existing audio distros as a base and tune it for Live. Then you could have a Live Live CD, stick in the CD, boot, straight into Live. sorted.

General purpose computers are great for doing general stuff, but when im making music I dont care about reading emails and browsing the internet.

DO IT. Build it in at teh core.
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friend_kami
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Post by friend_kami » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:47 pm

Moody wrote:Let me try to paint a real picture of how Linux and an application like Live could be the simplest method of deploying the application. Currently, Ableton is fighting many battles to make Live work for everyone. (or atleast for the majority)

Why? Because, of Windows and all the hardware platforms people are attempting to run it on combined with the efforts to stablize it on Apple's various hardware and OS platforms. This is a difficult task. Hell, it is difficult for Microsoft to get everything they own to work together.

So, everybody is thinking that putting Linux into the mix could further confuse the issues. Obviously with the current approach it would but, here is the catch.... If, Ableton provided a Hardware Compatibility List (including desktops, laptops and audio interfaces) and built there own Linux (or any kernel) Kernel with Live as the exclusive GUI the world of variables become a lot smaller and become controlled variables.

So the experience now goes like this. I check the HCL, buy my compatible hardware which will most likely already have Winblows or OSX which you can use for whatever you want and now I install my Live but this time it installs itself parallel to the OS as a bootable option. So now I boot into an enviroment that is completely under the control of the Abes. This is what most of us are trying to achieve anyways when using full screen mode but, we cut out all the middle men.

Eh, who knows I may just be a dreamer but I am not the only one. 8)
what i do is to boot into live using live as the default shell.
still running on the windows platform, but it sure beats hogging your computer down with explorer running in the background + all the other uneccessary services and crap.

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