Popslut's scientific "analogue summing vs. ITB test.

[Tone Deft]

there is absolutely no point in using any better in here - full accoustic treatment isnt an option.

If your dumb enough to blow $000s on the best monitors without the kind of environment to make it worthwhile - thats your problem. If you have the environment - lucky you.

total bullshit.

take any untreated room, drop in KRKs, have a listen, drop in Adams/Genelecs/etc you will hear an incredible difference INSTANTLY. I just went from Event PS5s to Adam A7s and the difference is incredible, in my untreated room. I'd put the PS5s I used to have in the same league and KRKs, decent mid level priced monitors, but not even in the same league as Adams etc. I'm not saying everyone needs them, I'm saying that if you had a room full of monitors and someone asked you to take a pair, if you grab the KRKs over anything else I will put an icepick through your skull.

and before you go playing the money card, I saved up for my Adams and got a good deal, I paid my dues with mid level monitors and grew tired of them. you don't know me pal.

wait, have you ever HEARD good monitors? call me dumb for getting good monitors? this is audio why fuck around? what else is worth blowing some money on? speakers motherfucker, SPEAKERS!! (all in good fun, I have no beef with you Kazul, just talking shop, you're a nice guy, I'm not.)


THIS!!!! IS!!! AUDIO!!!!!



Tarekith - thanks for clearing that up, I didn't mean to get on Timur either.


pops - I wonder as kids these days learn their chops on DAWs only this riff will get wider as some of those kids get their hands on analog equipment.

Timur - cool.

[Timur]

Another reason why I think that many people fail at digital mixing is that the are thinking: "It's digital, it will only distort when it clips at 0 dBFS" and that is just wrong as far as I can tell. Both the AD and the DA converters/opamps will distort when driven towards their limits, plus the DA will go through an analog circuit for output as well that when driven too hot will distort.

Now with analog gear/mixers people tend to be less "brutal" but more delicate when it comes to signal output. It more like "Hey, it's analog, it can break, it can distort, I gotta stay smooth about the signal". Like in order not to overload their analog mixer inputs they will reduce the digital output from the DAW into the mixer, and in order not to overload their analog mixers output they will drive the digital input back into the computer less hot.

Sometimes it's all just psychology, and yes, being able to just grab that knob and turn it until it sounds good is also part of that, and that part is not to be underestimated. Tweaking sound has to feel natural and those knobs are far more an extension of your arm than the mouse, because you can use them blind. Why else do we Abletons pay so much for Remote SL kind of gear? We want that tactile experience. *lick*

Last but not least analog gear tends to behave "chaotic" or better to say "organic", that sounds often has more life. That is not because digital can't do it, but more because many digital effects/algorithms need to save of processing power and thus stay rather "simple" and "static". Nothing bores people more than exact repeating patters (though sometimes they can be just what you need, think of Techno, and even there you insert "breaks").

[nebulae]

and before you go playing the money card, I saved up for my Adams and got a good deal, I paid my dues with mid level monitors and grew tired of them. you don't know me pal.

If Tone Deft was a rich man, he would not be in this position, and if he was a woman (of any socio-economic class) he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the forum is caught up in the concept.

[Tarekith]

there is absolutely no point in using any better in here - full accoustic treatment isnt an option.

If your dumb enough to blow $000s on the best monitors without the kind of environment to make it worthwhile - thats your problem. If you have the environment - lucky you.

total bullshit.

take any untreated room, drop in KRKs, have a listen, drop in Adams/Genelecs/etc you will hear an incredible difference INSTANTLY.

I kind of have to agree with Khazul here, to a point. Sometimes adding larger/better speakers in an untreated room leads to all sorts of issues. After I got my HR824's, I had a few friends who went out and got some too. But for their rooms, untreated, it was a nightmare compared to what they were used to. The extended low end of the 'better' speakers made mixing so much more difficult, standing wavs galore. So while yes they had better speakers and there was an instant difference, it wasn't neccesarily better.

No need to call bullshit man, we've all had different experiences.

[Tone Deft]

Another reason why I think that many people fail at digital mixing is that the are thinking: "It's digital, it will only distort when it clips at 0 dBFS" and that is just wrong as far as I can tell. Both the AD and the DA converters/opamps will distort when driven towards their limits, plus the DA will go through an analog circuit for output as well that when driven too hot will distort.

really?? design a lot of audio circuits?

Now with analog gear/mixers people tend to be less "brutal" but more delicate when it comes to signal output. It more like "Hey, it's analog, it can break, it can distort, I gotta stay smooth about the signal". Like in order not to overload their analog mixer inputs they will reduce the digital output from the DAW into the mixer, and in order not to overload their analog mixers output they will drive the digital input back into the computer less hot.

really?? produce a lot of albums on analog desks?

Sometimes it's all just psychology, and yes, being able to just grab that knob and turn it until it sounds good is also part of that, and that part is not to be underestimated. Tweaking sound has to feel natural and those knobs are far more an extension of your arm than the mouse, because you can use them blind. Why else do we Abletons pay so much for Remote SL kind of gear? We want that tactile experience.

this is was popslut was saying.

Last but not least analog gear tends to behave "chaotic" or better to say "organic", that sounds often has more life. That is not because digital can't do it, but more because many digital effects/algorithms need to save of processing power and thus stay rather "simple" and "static". Nothing bores people more than exact repeating patters (though sometimes they can be just what you need, think of Techno, and even there you insert "breaks").

wtf? "chaotic" "organic"...?? why not just say Jesus makes analog sound better.

digital has uglier clipping, analog can introduce nice sounding harmonics under amplification (it's non-linear) stuff like that. when someone starts spouting words like chaotic and organic, they're either selling you Monster cable or don't know what they're talking about.


Timur - please stick to software testing, that's your strength. the instruments and singing too. you're a talented guy but know your limits.

[nebulae]

awwwww yeah, it's on, motherfuckers!!!!

[Tone Deft]

No need to call bullshit man, we've all had different experiences.

I'll listen, definitely, I don't know Khazul, for all I know he's a stud producer and making a point I don't get yet.

I think you mistyped your 2nd to last sentence, should be "wasn't necessarily better"? they traded one problem for another. I used to love the Mackies for their sound, what I've realized is that they sound like a boomy club sound, they're not transparent.

again, if there's a bunch of boxes in front of you and you take the KRKs over Genelecs, Adams and whatnot, you should be shot in the balls.


Neb - totally. audio kitten fight, like we know shit compared to KK, slut, mixerman (been digging that site) and others.

[nebulae]

Neb - totally. audio kitten fight, like we know shit compared to KK, slut, mixerman (been digging that site) and others.

Hey hey hey, what's this "we" business...my "audio" penis is much much bigger than yours, byatch!

[Tone Deft]

Neb - totally. audio kitten fight, like we know shit compared to KK, slut, mixerman (been digging that site) and others.

Hey hey hey, what's this "we" business...my "audio" penis is much much bigger than yours, byatch!

pffffft totally, you, Tarekith and many others have taught me lots of stuff about production. there's that gap, then there's the whores like KK and slut who are light years ahead of you (all respect) and they (I assume) have producers they look up to like gods. I don't have the skills but I know when my ears are happy.

seriously, check out that mixerman radio show, skip the first shows that are interviews, the ones where they're sitting around bullshitting are priceless. it sounds just like this place but there's real content.

[Timur]

really?? design a lot of audio circuits?
...
really?? produce a lot of albums on analog desks?

Why, would you like to add something from your expertise that will help further my understanding? I'm always glad and willing to learn, although I have to admit that in this post I used another form of semantics than I often use to do in posts. Can you find it?

this is was popslut was saying.

I should have added: "Yes" to underline that my surge of words was meant as acknowledgement and consent with his statement.

wtf? "chaotic" "organic"...?? why not just say Jesus makes analog sound better.

digital has uglier clipping, analog can introduce nice sounding harmonics under amplification (it's non-linear) stuff like that. when someone starts spouting words like chaotic and organic, they're either selling you Monster cable or don't know what they're talking about.

It's late and these were the most appropiate abstract shortcuts my mind came up with when trying to express how analog circuits are prone to many more sometimes uncontrollable and considerable more complex variables than most modern digital algorithms, and that these variables will lead to variations in sound that human ears/phychology seemingly find more pleasing than the stoic foreseeability of CPU efficient routines. Apart from that: Chaos is quite a well defined term at least in mathematics and describes the problem of perceiving and controlling complex systems as far as I know. Now does that sound anything better to you? Are you even still awake while reading all this? If not then I better keep using "chaotic" and "organic" to better entertain the audience.

Timur - please stick to software testing, that's your strength. the instruments and singing too. you're a talented guy but know your limits.

That doesn't necessarily mean that I am bound to stay within my limits. To the contrary, I constantly push them in order to get better. That's what is called exercise (you've got to push those muscles to their limits in order to motivate growth) and learning from errors (if you're always right without anyone telling you otherwise then you learn nothing).

[thefool]

Another reason why I think that many people fail at digital mixing is that the are thinking: "It's digital, it will only distort when it clips at 0 dBFS" and that is just wrong as far as I can tell.

now i'm going to say something here which might sound stupid but isn't that just clipping on your own gear? I mean seriously if you keep it under clipping point and run it through whatever won't it sound as it should? I know we discussed CD players before.

I think the point here is to discuss what happens in the box not the audio interface. Its not like the sound that comes out if it is the thing you put on the CD or anything. So if you smack up the interface and it starts distorting how would you say thats the songs fault?

Just a stupid question you know.

But again as you remember, we discussed if it really was the right thing to use a high quality audio interface. You just never had a comment, fag

[Tone Deft]

really?? design a lot of audio circuits?
...
really?? produce a lot of albums on analog desks?

Why, would you like to add something from your expertise that will help further my understanding? I'm always glad and willing to learn, although I have to admit that in this post I used another form of semantics than I often use to do in posts. Can you find it?

I really don't want to go into it now, better stuff to do. I'll say that if the hardware is a limitation on the software, the hardware guy isn't doing his job. make sense? re: analog vs. digital, there's nothing like experience and there are people here who have it and it's not me or you.

this is was popslut was saying.

I should have added: "Yes" to underline that my surge of words was meant as acknowledgement and consent with his statement.

cool. I was just on a roll, being a smartass.

wtf? "chaotic" "organic"...?? why not just say Jesus makes analog sound better.

digital has uglier clipping, analog can introduce nice sounding harmonics under amplification (it's non-linear) stuff like that. when someone starts spouting words like chaotic and organic, they're either selling you Monster cable or don't know what they're talking about.

It's late and these were the most appropiate abstract shortcuts my mind came up with when trying to express how analog circuits are prone to many more sometimes uncontrollable and considerable more complex variables than most modern digital algorithms, and that these variables will lead to variations in sound that human ears/phychology seemingly find more pleasing than the stoic foreseeability of CPU efficient routines. Apart from that: Chaos is quite a well defined term at least in mathematics and describes the problem of perceiving and controlling complex systems as far as I know. Now does that sound anything better to you? Are you even still awake while reading all this? If not then I better keep using "chaotic" and "organic" to better entertain the audience.

poetry only a true lunatic could write.

That doesn't necessarily mean that I am bound to stay within my limits. To the contrary, I constantly push them in order to get better. That's what is called exercise (you've got to push those muscles to their limits in order to motivate growth) and learning from errors (if you're always right without anyone telling you otherwise then you learn nothing).

totally. I hope you know I respect you as a smart guy, you just kinda go off the deep end every once in a while. but there are threads I will not post in, like production threads, unless I have a question or an OT point to make. I generally don't give advice where I'm clearly out of my element. the only time I'll do that is either a mistake or trying to help a n00b whose post has dropped from the top of the page.

get some sleep Timur, dream of large breasted women at Ableton HQ coding up fixes to your bug reports.

[Timur]

I'll say that if the hardware is a limitation on the software, the hardware guy isn't doing his job. make sense?

Yes, it does. But these also make sense:

RME Octamic D: THD: < 0.006% @ 30 dB Gain
RME Octamic II: THD: < 0.0005 % @ 30 dB Gain
RME Micstacy: THD+N @ 30 dB Gain: < -100 dB, < 0.001 %
Avalon VT737: Distortion THD, IMD 0.5%

And this also makes sense:

Then you can see the harmonic distribution of your converters...for instance, an RME converter has very little distortion, most of it the unobtrusive 2nd harmonic (the 1st harmonic being the fundamental). The converters on an API A2D however have significant 3rd harmonic, which gives them that API "zing".

get some sleep Timur, dream of large breasted women at Ableton HQ coding up fixes to your bug reports.

Jake: The Caddy! Where's the Caddy?
Elwood: The what?
Jake: The Cadillac we used to have. The Bluesmobile!
Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Bluesmobile for this?
Elwood: No, for a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Watched that one again just a few weeks ago with my lady. She's missing the largest breast department, but I'm still quite sure she's female. But now I'll wake her from the couch and both of us will drop dead into bed and fall into coma.

[Tarekith]

now i'm going to say something here which might sound stupid but isn't that just clipping on your own gear? I mean seriously if you keep it under clipping point and run it through whatever won't it sound as it should? I know we discussed CD players before.

Not neccesarily. The common issue is intersample modulation distortion, well it's not common so much anymore, but that's the main one you see discussed. Anyway, the basic premise is that even if you keep the audio signal at or below 0dBFS in your studio, it's possible for the consumer's D/A to misinterpret multiple max sample values as being a waveform higher than 0dB. So while you can't clip above 0dB digitally, the D/A will create a waveform greater than 0dB and the analog stage of the D/A then clips. We're talking microseconds here, but with all the heavy limiting that goes on in today's music, that adds up. That's one reason most professional mastering engineers will NEVER set the final output of the mastering chain higher than say -0.3 to -0.1dBFS, to avoid the potential for this happening.

Like the whole "digital is harsh" campaign, it's more an issue with older DAC's than anything recent, but it can happen there too in some cases. Considering it's only 0.1dBFS you need to lower the level to prevent this, better safe than sorry. Personally I use 0.2 myself.

[Timur]

now i'm going to say something here which might sound stupid but isn't that just clipping on your own gear? I mean seriously if you keep it under clipping point and run it through whatever won't it sound as it should? I know we discussed CD players before.

I think the point here is to discuss what happens in the box not the audio interface. Its not like the sound that comes out if it is the thing you put on the CD or anything. So if you smack up the interface and it starts distorting how would you say thats the songs fault?

Just a stupid question you know.

But again as you remember, we discussed if it really was the right thing to use a high quality audio interface. You just never had a comment, fag

Nope, not a stupid question at all. Fortunately Tarekith has answered it well already, because I'm really short of falling off the chair. About that high quality audio interface, please point me to that thread again via PM and I will gladly answer the question if I can.