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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:14 pm
by fishmonkey
hey, i've had this issue too... (MacBook Pro, 10.4.11, MOTU Ultralite)

never bothered to find out why, i've just kept my iTunes fader down...

but now there are two growing threads on this i'll do some proper tests tomorrow...

haha, i might end up eating my words, but like topey says it's a big difference, and my feeling is it's not simply a matter of whacko gain stages or mega compression...

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:26 pm
by topey
Thanks for good advices...

Happy Holidays!

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:05 am
by fishmonkey
ah yep! time to eat those words!

umm, well i just did a proper quick check of this whole loudness disparity bizo, and i have to say that actually there is no inherent difference in the signal gain between Live and iTunes...

it's not that i was expecting a difference, but the whole Ultralite/Live/iTunes combo sparked a thought that maybe there was a bug in the system somewhere...

but no! as many experienced people in this thread have suggested, it's most likely a matter of apparent loudness (i.e. the tracks you are listening to in iTunes have been mixed and mastered to maximise their loudness, which is not simply to do with where your metering is peaking)...

to prove this to yourself:

1. go into the iTunes prefs, and make sure that Sound Check and Sound Enhancer are off... also make sure the iTunes preamp and EQ are off...

2. choose a track and start it playing, and adjust your monitoring so that you can have the iTunes master at maximum without your eyeballs exploding out of the back of your head... now stop the track...

3. now open a new Live set (make sure the master, track and clip levels are at 0db), and drop the track you chose from iTunes onto an audio clip... if you now start the clip playing you will probably find that the apparent loudness is pretty similar to what you were hearing from iTunes... flipping between the two should make it pretty obvious...

if you have the CueMix console open you should also be able to see from the meters that the signal peaks are pretty much the same...

and topey, the reverse should be true too... if you bounce down one of your tracks that seems quiet in Live, and play it in iTunes, i think you'll find that your track seems much quieter there too...

a further test would be to drop an aggressive compressor over your master in Live and crank it... this simple test may not make your track sound better, but it will make it sound louder, and if you crank it hard enough you should be able to make your Live track sound roughly as loud as a commercial track in iTunes...

if you follow these steps and don't get these results, then maybe you have another issue in your audio setup...

hope this helps!

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:25 am
by topey

Thank You Very Much, but still I have to say that I was missunderstood.

I do not say that anyone here was wrong when advicing, only the advices were to the other situation than this.

All of the advices were great, and they also were very helpfull, if the problem was in mastering and not getting the playback level to the same as in other tracks in other applications.

But that was not the problem.

I have tools to equal the volume levels when mastering tracks.

I was asking if there was a possibility to adjust the power of the signal, that LIVE sends to soundcard

I need it to compensate differences between different applications when toggling between them.

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:35 am
by fishmonkey
i'm sorry, but this really is getting silly!

so you agree that the tracks you are creating in Live are not as loud as the commercial tracks in other applications, but you want Live to somehow put out more signal to make it louder?

like you want a MASTER master fader??????

this really makes no sense!

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:36 am
by capo-wear-i
I call wind up.

No-one is this dumb.

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:35 pm
by topey
fishmonkey wrote:
like you want a MASTER master fader??????


A way to control the power of sound signals that different audio applications are sending to soundcard.

Like a virtual mixer/amp between audio appĀ“s and soundcard.

It is a little application/system extension/plugin that is needed sometimes.

I was asking if anyone knows that kind of application, or if there was somewhere in LIVE preferences possibility to adjust the output.

But as I can see, here is not knowledge about that kind of thing, so please let it be.

Have a nice easter!

May be this should had been posted to feature wishlist instead of general.

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:49 pm
by fishmonkey
i'm sorry topey, but what you are wanting really does not make any sense!

i mean, i understand what you are asking, it's just that i don't think you really understand how audio and loudness works... i know you think you do, but from what you keep saying, it's obvious that you don't really... i don't mean to be rude, but that's the truth!

unless you change the mix of the tracks you are working on in Live to raise their overall apparent loudness, you have no choice but to LOWER the volume of all your other apps that you say are too loud...

you've got your logic all backwards....

happy easter!

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:05 pm
by topey
i'm sorry topey, but what you are wanting really does not make any sense!

you've got your logic all backwards....

Thank You very much of participating to this conversation.

If my logic is different from yours, thats pretty obvious that my thinking then do not make any sense to you.

But i do not let it spoile my days.

Instead of answering to this, follow the link of my signature to get a idea what can people with backward logic, no understanding of audio, and silly and dumb ideas can create.

Feel free to not continue this conversation.

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:05 pm
by Nokatus
So... Topey. As this still isn't quite clear, answer it now: are you comparing the exact same material in different applications? If not, try it. Play back the same file, in all those applications you're using. Make sure you don't have any "hidden" processing going on anywhere (like the enhancer in iTunes). Try this out, and then report back.

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:01 pm
by Corn Swabler

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:12 pm
by laird
yeah c'mon you mean forum people.

The OP wants to know if some app will let him turn the volume of Live above 0dB, and you barrage him with all this info on developing Mixing and Mastering skills?

All you have to do is turn the volume slider in Live up That'll boost the volume above 0. I bet turning the master slider up to +10dBfs will make Live sound as loud as iTunes.

If you dont like the color red, you can try one of these two techniques:

1) dial up Live effects preset "Brickwall Limilter", set threshold to -30dB, makeupgain set to ON, drop this on the Master track. THERE, just as loud!

2) Also as good, but less often used, is the old Bit Reduction plugin. Drop this on the master track, set it to 4-8 bits, and BAM! you should be just as loud as iTunes.

No extra software necessary, isn't Albeton Live great or what?!?

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:10 pm
by doc holiday
if you press the correct key combination when you load up live, the master fader will then go to eleven.


Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:36 am
by fishmonkey
hey topey,

nobody here is trying to give you a hard time for no reason...

i think because you are getting a bit defensive you aren't really listening to what everyone is trying to tell you... no one is saying you can't play music, or record it and mix in in Live... if fact, it's not so hard to do so, especially with Live... and yes, i listened to some of your song...

the problem is that audio is actually a bit trickier than you think... this is not meant as an insult, but you are not a recording professional, and your level of skills and understanding would not get you very far in a real recording studio...

it wouldn't matter if you were using Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools or any other DAW for creating your music, you would have the same issues that you are having with Live... the "problem" is not with Live, it's with your lack of understanding which is leading you to expect something which is not realistic...

i have to go now, but maybe later i can try and explain things in a way that makes more sense to you...


Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:47 am
by capo-wear-i
OK - I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Re-read all the other posts, especially the ones by Fishmonkey - he's actually trying to help you.

Live and other DAW apps cannot output past 0dbFS - it's impossible without clipping the audio signal.