For those having reaktor... and any kind of time coded vinyl

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinate
Posts: 11646
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Machinate » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:22 pm

Nathan Ramella wrote:
Machinate wrote:
Nathan Ramella wrote:Fair play to you, I haven't used Max 5. Reaktor already has my $500, unless Max can cook bacon and eggs for me in the morning I'm going to stick with what I know. :D Besides, Reaktor 6 may eventually come out some day!
fo sho, and who knows, Reaktor 6 may even have OSC support :-P
Reaktor 5 has OSC support.

http://www.native-instruments.com/index ... tchid=6843

It just sucks. :D
oh, I know... I know, and the poor-ass implementation makes reaktor even more annoying than a non-OSC system, if you get me.
Since getting my grubby hands on a Lemur I have done quite a few things with Reaktor. Now, when MaxMSP 5 comes out, I will officially NOT touch Reaktor OSC with a ten foot pole.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

Machinate
Posts: 11646
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Machinate » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:25 pm

Nathan Ramella wrote:2. On the right channel set it's phase +90 degrees (In Reaktor this is accomplished by setting the phase to (.5 or)
Wouldn't that be "+180 degrees"?
Nathan Ramella wrote: 3. Set both oscillators to a frequency of your choice, Traktor Scratch likes 2khz (2000 cycles per second), it may be possible to use higher rates which would increase pickup time

4. Set amplitude above .001 (just put it to .9 or something)

Done.

That will give you all the 'timecode' you need. Record that and play it back, viola, home brew time code. Since ammobox doesn't care about absolute positioning the idea of encoding absolute position into binary data in the sinewaves isn't necessary.
ah, but then you don't get "needle-drop" functionality, right? Dang. Was hoping for a bit of that. Still, am going to futz around with this abit, should be doable with like 4 msp objects.~Cheers.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:29 pm

it's 90 degrees, it's called 'quadrature mode'. machinate you might know what a flip flop is? the most basic digital circuit there it, there's an input, an output and a clock. when the clock input senses a rising edge, it captures the input and holds the output there until the next clock edge comes along. draw two square waves 90 degrees out of phase from each other. make one a clock input, the other a data input. if you go one way (left to right for example) you'll always clock in a 0, if you go the other way you always clock in a 1. really cool system, used on fader knobs, for example

as for leaving out the numbers in the timecode, you can only do relative tracking, which I prefer because you can't skip the record. with absolute you can skip the record, I'm not sure why absolute is preferable.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Machinate
Posts: 11646
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Machinate » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:33 pm

Tone Deft wrote:it's 90 degrees, it's called 'quadrature mode'.
Yeah, I was confused not by that but by the ".5 in Reaktor" remark..
Tone Deft wrote:as for leaving out the numbers in the timecode, you can only do relative tracking, which I prefer because you can't skip the record. with absolute you can skip the record, I'm not sure why absolute is preferable.
yeah, there are benefits to both, really. Turntablists often do "vinyl drops" where the needle is plopped right at the start of the loop. That would need to be done in software with relative tracking.

Nathan Ramella
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:48 am

Post by Nathan Ramella » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:33 pm

Machinate wrote:
Nathan Ramella wrote:2. On the right channel set it's phase +90 degrees (In Reaktor this is accomplished by setting the phase to (.5 or)
Wouldn't that be "+180 degrees"?
Nathan Ramella wrote: 3. Set both oscillators to a frequency of your choice, Traktor Scratch likes 2khz (2000 cycles per second), it may be possible to use higher rates which would increase pickup time

4. Set amplitude above .001 (just put it to .9 or something)

Done.

That will give you all the 'timecode' you need. Record that and play it back, viola, home brew time code. Since ammobox doesn't care about absolute positioning the idea of encoding absolute position into binary data in the sinewaves isn't necessary.
ah, but then you don't get "needle-drop" functionality, right? Dang. Was hoping for a bit of that. Still, am going to futz around with this abit, should be doable with like 4 msp objects.~Cheers.
Also:

With ammobox 'needle-drop' would be counter productive, needle-dropping is an extremely inexact and time consuming procedure when you think about it. You set the play position via MIDI clips, position changes are instantaneous and require no user intervention.

Since there's no visual cues on a time-code record that correspond to actual audio position anyway, it's basically impossible to list that as a 'plus'. No matter how awesome you are at needle dropping, you're still going to be a fistfull of milliseconds or seconds behind someone who's got the cue point mapped to a MIDI trigger.

The only reason absolute position is important is if you're a long-track DJ which there are plenty of products already that cater to that crowd.

ammobox doesn't want to compete with those products, they simply reproduce the same DJ workflow that has been the staple of digital vinyl since Final Scratch 1.0, why do we want to continue remaking the same workflow that has been virtually unchanged since the 1970s?
Last edited by Nathan Ramella on Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
remix.net - versus / liveapi / hangthedj / ammobox

Machinate
Posts: 11646
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Machinate » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:35 pm

Nathan Ramella wrote:ammobox doesn't want to compete with those products, they simply reproduce the same DJ workflow that has been the staple of digital vinyl since Final Scratch 1.0, why do we want to continue remaking the same workflow that has been virtually unchanged since the 1970s?
totally respec that attitude.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

Nathan Ramella
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:48 am

Post by Nathan Ramella » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:38 pm

Here's an example:

Image

The -1 on sync might not be necessary, basically near the end I was just cutting and pasting things together for the hell of it. *shrug* But that time code generator works.

I'm pretty certian off the top of my head that +0.5 is right for +90 degrees, +1.0 would be +180 degrees, -1.0 would be -180 degrees..
remix.net - versus / liveapi / hangthedj / ammobox

bensuthers
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:51 am

Post by bensuthers » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:04 pm

re: interfacing with live.

for those looking for an answer, yes you can use this (standalone) and control the tempo of Live.

no you can't use it to control clip tempo.

yes you can use it to output any controller number, and you can use it to fudge and remote control the 'nudge' interface; this enables you to control the clip more like vinyl but no scratching or backwards...


these limitations are abletons.

when used solely internally you can use it as a final scratch type device no worries..

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:12 pm

bensuthers wrote:no you can't use it to control clip tempo.
idea -
send ammobox's output to a bit of code that spits out a bpm and sends out a note once per measure. then assign that note to the 'tap tempo' in Live. that'll get the whole project to track the control vinyl but it's a far cry from scratching.

beent thinking of playing with +/-nudge in this manner as well.


I've been having a blast cropping clips then pointing Pinky to the crop folder in the project directory. it's not scratching IN Live but it's close.

I'm digging the momentum this is gathering. 8)
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

kpa
Posts: 179
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:50 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Contact:

Post by kpa » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:11 pm

thanks for the link to the file. i will this afternoon, burn a cd of timecode and get scratching on my technics sldz's.

i understand your view on real time scratching, how it may be a duff sounds that you end up scratching, i was just interested in perhaps using it like the mystical 'replicator' that rza spoke of, to scratch live the singer of the band i am in. But, the present ammobox is certainly enough to be using.

major props nathan,

kpa
Cryptomnesian - the recall of memories not recognised as such, but thought to be original ideas.
www.Cryptomnesian.com
www.myspace.com/thekpa
www.myspace.com/thebodesapha

Nathan Ramella
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:48 am

Post by Nathan Ramella » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:44 pm

kpa wrote:thanks for the link to the file. i will this afternoon, burn a cd of timecode and get scratching on my technics sldz's.

i understand your view on real time scratching, how it may be a duff sounds that you end up scratching, i was just interested in perhaps using it like the mystical 'replicator' that rza spoke of, to scratch live the singer of the band i am in. But, the present ammobox is certainly enough to be using.

major props nathan,

kpa
Here's the deal with scratching live sound -- this is totally possible with ammobox, in fact the idea has already been created in Reaktor back in 2004. (Maybe earlier)

http://www.native-instruments.com:80/in ... tchid=1871

The way skeleton scratch works is, it has a circular buffer that gets filled up with incoming audio data, and instead of being controlled by a turntable you mouse over the record and drag it around to scratch the buffer.

HangTheDJ is modular enough that you could with a little effort (3-4 days for a novice, 2-3 for a reaktor veteran) hook it up to skeleton scratch and be scratching live audio. There's a few things that would have to be addressed to make it work right, so it's a non-trivial effort to make it sound good.

This isn't really on my agenda but if enough people want it I can probably make it happen. I have no need for it myself, so a bounty would be helpful to motivate me.
remix.net - versus / liveapi / hangthedj / ammobox

mdk
Posts: 914
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:51 pm
Location: Skopje, Macedonia
Contact:

Post by mdk » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:16 pm

here you go mate, in fact, have two..

Image

now get to work.
Pr0k Records - Bandcamp Facebook Twitter

Nathan Ramella
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:48 am

Post by Nathan Ramella » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:43 pm

mdk wrote:here you go mate, in fact, have two..

Image

now get to work.
Dude. mdk. I emailed you ages ago saying

1) You're welcome to the official LiveAPI 'name' / project space, (and domains if you want them)

2) To congratulate you for the great work you're doing on the concept

I never heard back!

Email me dude!

p.s. yum, bounty!
remix.net - versus / liveapi / hangthedj / ammobox

mdk
Posts: 914
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:51 pm
Location: Skopje, Macedonia
Contact:

Post by mdk » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:00 pm

sorry man, i keep remembering ive got to email you and then i get sidetracked.

i'll do it later when i boot back into linux. no mail here.
Pr0k Records - Bandcamp Facebook Twitter

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:04 pm

mdk - just do it yourself. Nathan's done the hard part, step up your game! he even gave you a clue how to do it, help the man out! I doubt Nathan needs a donation as much as he needs the free time, ya know?
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Post Reply