Operator users that also have Racktor...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Homebelly
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Post by Homebelly » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:43 pm

wildtek wrote:Right but it's also pretty exciting (imo) to tweak knobs and hear the effects of each one on the sound, a knob well 'turned' can provides better results than any sort of randomize things.

Past night, I was absolutely not able to find a way to sleep quietly and normally so, I opened Reaktor, loaded an ARP emulation ensemble and started to tweak each paramaters one after one, and finally I've been surprised myself to find sounds similar if not 'the same' as Kraftwerk's most know tracks (Trance Europe Express, Radio Activity, Numbers, ...)

I def think good music or at least good sounds are result of a correct knowledge of technique and a part of magic due to randomize or other improvisations that technology permit us to use.
If i understand this correctly then what you are saying is that there is more validity in learning to program a synth than just using random sounds, if i have got that right then yeah i couldn't agree with you more.
However, i don't think that the importance of knowing how synthesis works is undermined by using randomization at all. One of the dangers of relying on knowledge constantly is that there is the danger that you will follow the most well used path, in terms of electronic music that is also the path that leads to generic and predictable sounds. In my mind Randomization is an awesome muse for inspiration, especially if you are completely aware of the character of the synth, in this situation being able to randomize it's controls can often bring up sounds that you might not have thought to try and create on your own using that particular synth.
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:00 am

I dunno Belly, you're making a lot of assumptions about EVERY person that has ever used a synth. IMO everyone should LEARN their tools, and everyone should spend some time blindly making random happy accident patches.

then there's those freak artists who don't have a goddamn clue what they're doing but they do it incredibly well. I envy those guys.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Homebelly
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Post by Homebelly » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:23 am

Tone Deft wrote:I dunno Belly, you're making a lot of assumptions about EVERY person that has ever used a synth. IMO everyone should LEARN their tools, and everyone should spend some time blindly making random happy accident patches.

then there's those freak artists who don't have a goddamn clue what they're doing but they do it incredibly well. I envy those guys.
I thought that was kinda what i was saying??? :?
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:25 am

Homebelly wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I dunno Belly, you're making a lot of assumptions about EVERY person that has ever used a synth. IMO everyone should LEARN their tools, and everyone should spend some time blindly making random happy accident patches.

then there's those freak artists who don't have a goddamn clue what they're doing but they do it incredibly well. I envy those guys.
I thought that was kinda what i was saying??? :?
OK then

Homebelly wrote:
wildtek wrote:Right but it's also pretty exciting (imo) to tweak knobs and hear the effects of each one on the sound, a knob well 'turned' can provides better results than any sort of randomize things.

Past night, I was absolutely not able to find a way to sleep quietly and normally so, I opened Reaktor, loaded an ARP emulation ensemble and started to tweak each paramaters one after one, and finally I've been surprised myself to find sounds similar if not 'the same' as Kraftwerk's most know tracks (Trance Europe Express, Radio Activity, Numbers, ...)

I def think good music or at least good sounds are result of a correct knowledge of technique and a part of magic due to randomize or other improvisations that technology permit us to use.
If i understand this correctly then what you are saying is that there is more validity in learning to program a synth than just using random sounds, if i have got that right then yeah i couldn't agree with you more.
However, i don't think that the importance of knowing how synthesis works is undermined by using randomization at all. One of the dangers of relying on knowledge constantly is that there is the danger that you will follow the most well used path, in terms of electronic music that is also the path that leads to generic and predictable sounds. In my mind Randomization is an awesome muse for inspiration, especially if you are completely aware of the character of the synth, in this situation being able to randomize it's controls can often bring up sounds that you might not have thought to try and create on your own using that particular synth.
signed furiously.


the internet is a horrible form of communication, that will serve to both prevent and start future wars.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:30 am

Tone Deft wrote:The internet is a horrible form of communication, that will serve to both prevent and start future wars.
Oi! What exactly are you implying?!?

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:30 am

Machinate wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:The internet is a horrible form of communication, that will serve to both prevent and start future wars.
Oi! What exactly are you implying?!?
wtf do you mean by that? :evil:
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Nathan Ramella
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Post by Nathan Ramella » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:33 am

laffo. It always cracks me up when people take a high-road on how music should be created.

When MIDI notation programs came out, sessions musicians put them down
When mod tracker programs came out, MIDI notation users put them down
When software samplers came out hardware samplers put them down
When soft synths came out, hardware synth users put them down
When final scratch came out vinyl DJs put it down

Here's the god's honest truth: If it sounds good, nobody cares how little or how much work you put into it. 99% of popular music sounds good because of the mixing, not because of the content or craftsmanship of the notation.

The only people who will argue about technical details are nerds and sound engineers. Arguing for or against randomization is so esoteric and moot it defies argument.

17 year old girls don't hear a house track and think 'What a tosser, he obviously just used the Whispering Pines preset from the Korg Micro and ran it through the parametric EQ and delay in Logic.'
remix.net - versus / liveapi / hangthedj / ammobox

Homebelly
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Post by Homebelly » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:35 am

Fuckit!!
I'll take you both on....
BAR FIGHT!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

Nathan Ramella
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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:48 am

Post by Nathan Ramella » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:36 am

Homebelly wrote:Fuckit!!
I'll take you both on....
BAR FIGHT!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
FINALLY!
remix.net - versus / liveapi / hangthedj / ammobox

Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:37 am

Nathan Ramella wrote:
Homebelly wrote:Fuckit!!
I'll take you both on....
BAR FIGHT!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
FINALLY!
Let he who throws the first chair be ME!

Nathan Ramella
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:48 am

Post by Nathan Ramella » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:37 am

Can you tell it's Friday? .. I'm out..
remix.net - versus / liveapi / hangthedj / ammobox

Homebelly
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Post by Homebelly » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:39 am

Nathan Ramella wrote:Can you tell it's Friday? .. I'm out..
SISSY!!!! :twisted:
Right every one,,
LETS GET HIM!!!!!
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

wildtek
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Post by wildtek » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:49 am

Interesting topic !
If i understand this correctly then what you are saying is that there is more validity in learning to program a synth than just using random sounds
Sorry english is not my first language and maybe I don't explain correctly what I mean. There is not "more validity" in learning to program a synth since it 's a choice of your own.

But, I also think that if you know well how act a LFO on an OSC or Filter, you can expect some precise results when working with synth x or y.
However, i don't think that the importance of knowing how synthesis works is undermined by using randomization at all
And you're totally right, but on another side it can be a very good start point to learn how your synth works. Looking how each parameters has been set by the random function can help to understand at which point which parameters influence each other.
In my mind Randomization is an awesome muse for inspiration
Totally agree.

I'll add that too much technique kill art but technique is also required at some points, we can't rely on hasard at 100 %, or why the technique exist ?

A right balance is needed in order to achieve proper results. IMO, it's a 50/50 story, some basics extented by the magic of the unknown. In this case, the randomization.
Wildtek Concept
http://wildtek.free.fr
http://wildtek.blogspot.com

'DO IT YOURSELF'

Alexis Forge
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Post by Alexis Forge » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:19 am

I was going to use this existing Reaktor thread but I think it may have strayed...so I might give it it's own thread too

I've been thinking a lot lately about learning Max and getting more into creating my own tools, but I already have Reaktor 4

some people have already suggested getting R5 but I dont have a pot to piss in - so that puts Max/MSP out of the frame for now too

question is, how far can I get with Reaktor 4? will it be really useful for building my own instruments that integrate with Live - like for example TOne Deft's one pedal looper and things like that - can you do really flexible routing type stuff with Reaktor 4?

I have it as part of Komplete 2 and have only ever loaded presets - so I'd rather use what I already have if I can

can Reaktor handle signals from hardware and convert them to MIDI/OSC - things like that like Max can? I dont mind using Glove PIE for that, but I'm curious

Alexis Forge
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Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:34 am

Post by Alexis Forge » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:20 am

I was going to use this existing Reaktor thread but I think it may have strayed...so I might give it it's own thread too

I've been thinking a lot lately about learning Max and getting more into creating my own tools, but I already have Reaktor 4

some people have already suggested getting R5 but I dont have a pot to piss in - so that puts Max/MSP out of the frame for now too

question is, how far can I get with Reaktor 4? will it be really useful for building my own instruments that integrate with Live - like for example TOne Deft's one pedal looper and things like that - can you do really flexible routing type stuff with Reaktor 4?

I have it as part of Komplete 2 and have only ever loaded presets - so I'd rather use what I already have if I can

can Reaktor handle signals from hardware and convert them to MIDI/OSC - things like that like Max can? I dont mind using Glove PIE for that, but I'm curious

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