Betas! Reality check: Reason vs. VSTi in LIVE 4?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
vdrum
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Betas! Reality check: Reason vs. VSTi in LIVE 4?

Post by vdrum » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:16 am

I'm fairly new to computer based music production and have been thrilled with the combo of Reason and Live (ver.3). I'm using them ReWired and have bought a few cool refills, so Im overflowing with available sounds...

I've read a fair amount of posts that seem to point to users leaving all thier other software/hardware in favour of Live 4.

Q's-

Are the available VSTis THAT much better sounding that a fully outfitted & tweaked Reason soundbank?

Is the new LIVE 4 "Simpler" really as advanced as Reasons NN-XT sampler coupled with Recycle? Im talkinhg about slicing things up with ReCycle and mappingsounds out across a keyboard?

I fullu understand the concept of having everything under the same roof, but is it really THAT much better than ReWiring Reason into LIVE (its SO easy to do)?


Is the Impulse drum machine hugely better than Redrum mapped out by an accomplished drummer?

I'd love to hear from some of the Beta-testers that also use Reason: what are your thoughts?

Thanks,

Vdrum
eDrummer: Roland Vdrum kit Live 8/ MacBookPro 2.5 mhz & 2gb. Motu Ultralite.. Homemade midi-triggering pad for LIVE's filters , clips , & record buttons. Hopelessly hooked on live looping.

bencodec
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Post by bencodec » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:46 am

ok, firstly i wouild say that this is just my opinion, but yes i do this reason is a toy compared with live 4. the 2 built in intstruments in live 4 are just what you expect from live, they are simple, easy, and quick to work with, though they still have supprisingly well thought out features.
the built in midi devices are not what makes live jump out ahead of reason, it the inclusion of VSTi and AU. the "simpler" is just a simple sampler thats very very fun to play, however you can now use the kontakt VSTi sampler, or battery, or mach5, or any other very decent softsampler, which will all sound and work better then either sampler in reason.
have a listen to reaktor and then listen to the subtractor again... there is no comparison.

now i am not a fan of this "all in one package" approach, i find it sonicly limiting, however the beauty of the new version of live is it seems to play so very well with others.

php
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Re: Betas! Reality check: Reason vs. VSTi in LIVE 4?

Post by php » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:06 am

vdrum wrote:I'm fairly new to computer based music production and have been thrilled with the combo of Reason and Live (ver.3). I'm using them ReWired and have bought a few cool refills, so Im overflowing with available sounds...

I've read a fair amount of posts that seem to point to users leaving all thier other software/hardware in favour of Live 4.

Q's-

Are the available VSTis THAT much better sounding that a fully outfitted & tweaked Reason soundbank?
IMO, no. Reason's Malstrom has a unique character that no VSTi I've heard can duplicate. As much as I've heard people complain about how "thin" Subtractor is, I find that many times it works better in a mix than something like an overpowering CS-80V patch. I think it's safe to assume that Propellerheads will be releasing a beta for Reason within the next few months that will add to and improve what it has already.
Is the new LIVE 4 "Simpler" really as advanced as Reasons NN-XT sampler coupled with Recycle? Im talkinhg about slicing things up with ReCycle and mappingsounds out across a keyboard?
"Simpler" is a simplfied sampler (hence the name) that is not on the same level as Reason's NN-XT. However Simpler as a sound source combined with the editing and effects features of Live 4 is much more powerful.
I fullu understand the concept of having everything under the same roof, but is it really THAT much better than ReWiring Reason into LIVE (its SO easy to do)?
That's the nice thing about Reason, the fact that you can come up with a finished composition just using that alone if you wanted to. From my experience, it's also good having a bunch of VSTi or AU instruments to use, but managing their usage and deciding what to use when and where gets to be a problem that can interfer with your creativity. It is easier to stay more focused using Reason.
Is the Impulse drum machine hugely better than Redrum mapped out by an accomplished drummer?
There again, Impulse is a simple drum machine, but combine that with the other features of Live 4 and you can do a whole lot more than with Redrum.
I'd love to hear from some of the Beta-testers that also use Reason: what are your thoughts?
After using the beta throughout the day, there is no question that I am buying the upgrade when it is available. It is much more refined than Live 3. Even things like routing audio between various tracks is easier due to improved options in the session track drop down menus. The performance on my Mac is noticeably improved even with all the added new features.
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FaX-01
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Post by FaX-01 » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:29 am

Yes but ...Redrum rewired and reprocessed in Live 3 will yield very impressive results also - ditto for Subtractor and Maelstrom.
Comparing Reaktor to Subtractor is a bit like comparing a Moog Prodigy to a Moog Modular (ie: hardly a level playing field comparison).
I'm one of those sad saps that actully likes the "Reason Sound" myself.
It does become very flexible when used in conjunction with Live IMHO.
It is also very easy to create Reaktor ,PureData , etc etc sample sets for NNXT anyway and I know of no other app that will allow me 60 modules and enough CPU overhead for rewire and the like either.
Personally I'd take Tassman over Reaktor anyday. Smooth as butter in comparison (far less aliasing in the oscillators etc etc).
If it works for you keep using it.
Just because other people have X,Y or Z plugin ,VST ,AU etc it doesn't mean you should as well.
Personally I find the closed interface of Reason and to a large extent live 3 far more inspiring . Limitations make me get more creative and thinking more laterally whilst composing.
It also makes it way easier to focus on the task at hand.
This may not be the case for everyone I agree.
For some of us it is definately a more productive way to work.
My aren't the wings of butterflies beautiful and do they not make wonderful perturbations.....

drez
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Post by drez » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:56 am

My two cents....

Reason and Live4 are superb together! You can also get the added benefit of VSTi's out there that have there own uniqe character like the Malstrom does. I love Reason and will never stop using it, but I absoultely LOVE the new sequencer in Live4, so I will be in rewire mode to Live4 and doing all of my sequencing there.

To me, they don't compete, but compliment.
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bigbadotis
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Post by bigbadotis » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:58 am

just want to say that I love Impulse. much more mangling than you could easily get out of ReDrum. The granular FX in my opinion are way more fun to tweak live than anything you could do during a performance with the ReDrum parameters.

And it's dead easy to use.

Thank goodness they included Impulse and Simpler instead of another analog-modeled sutractive synth... phew.

All that aside, the CPU efficiency of Reason is a pretty strong argument for it. It's amazing what you can do with that program even on older machines.

Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:10 am

so. Live 4 is way better, but Reason is still great. as is fruity loops

Willyum
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Post by Willyum » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:23 am

It's still early stages of beta testing so no one can really give a solid answer. I don't use VSTi's and I am a PC owner. From what I have seen so far the updates are geared towards Mac users, VSTi users and DJ based producers. The session view has a lot of enhancements but the arrangement view has things taken away. I use Live mostly for multi-tracking and almost never use the session view. The simpler is nice but it is by no means a full blown sampler. The Impulse is also nice and would give the Redrum a good fight. I always considered the Redrum kind of the weak link in Reason. But Like I said it is still too early to say.

Anyone who has a real hardware background understands that Reason is 'building blocks' for sound and if you know what you are doing you can get Reason to sound just as good as any other software or hardware available. The difference is a lot of the others include the reverbs, compressors, distortions...etc as part of the sound. In Reason you must take that same raw sound and add your own reverbs compression...etc to get that same feel.

I will most likely upgrade to Live 4 once it's cleaned up but I do not feel it is a neccesity if you mostly use Live for multi-tracking. If you are a musician and play keys, then you will not be leaving Reason any time soon.

I love the Live / Reason combo and don't see that fading anytime soon!
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::mic-minimal::
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Post by ::mic-minimal:: » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:18 am

Willyum wrote: If you are a musician and play keys, then you will not be leaving Reason any time soon.
unless you play loungelizard or Ni b4, then you will be very interested.
for the love of Live

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Post by quandry » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:19 pm

php said it all very well. All i would add is that you make it sound like redrum is the best reason has to offer for drums, vdrum--the nnxt can make WAY better kits with velocity layering and more sounds, etc. but surely you know this. NNXT is definitely more deep than simpler--I don't think anyone would question that. But simpler is so fun to just drag sample after sample into it. Like someone else said, Kontakt works in Live now, so different kits out there in various formats work in Kontakt and sound great--Kontakt does eat nnxt for breakfast. Reason has some cool things, like someone else said malstrom and subractor are fairly unique. That said, throw the orkester and "acoustic" instruments of reason to the curb compared to vsti in live 4--clearly the vstis availible blow reasons acoustic instrument sounds out of the ballpark.
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Alexander
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Re: Betas! Reality check: Reason vs. VSTi in LIVE 4?

Post by Alexander » Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:27 pm

vdrum wrote: I've read a fair amount of posts that seem to point to users leaving all thier other software/hardware in favour of Live 4.
The biggest benefit of Live 4 is that it actually allows you to integrate all the stuff you already have into one program.

i´ve been using the beta a few days now and all i can say is that i´ve really enjoyed it because of it´s connectivity. i´ve hooked up my waldorf q, a few freeware softsynths used loops and impulse and simpler.
i´ve tried this with nearly every major sequencer, but live is the first program that handles everything very intuitive.

my advice is to keep reason because of it´s sonic capabilities, but i can assure you that you´ll never will use the reason sequencer again. you´ll just use reason as a good sounding instrument rack

alexander
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vdrum
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Post by vdrum » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:10 am

Thanks for all the replies!

I have been using LIVE 4 and Reason togther over the past few nights and its really a great combo. I was very happy to hear that with patience and a good knowledge of Reasons effects, one CAN get awesome sounds out of Reasons synths.

I too will use LIVE 4 for ALL sequencing from now on..

Again,


THANKS!
eDrummer: Roland Vdrum kit Live 8/ MacBookPro 2.5 mhz & 2gb. Motu Ultralite.. Homemade midi-triggering pad for LIVE's filters , clips , & record buttons. Hopelessly hooked on live looping.

Amberience
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Post by Amberience » Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:01 am

Anyone who thinks Reason is a "toy" is just ignorant of the truth. Why lock doors? Why not just use whatever you want? Why do you have to get "permission" off of a web forum? I don't get it.. its a pointless question - use whatever the fuck you like.

You wanna drum with spoons... go for it!! You wanna use Reason rewired with Live 4... go for it!!

vdrum
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Post by vdrum » Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:11 am

Thanks for your well thought out and very important thoughts Amberience.
eDrummer: Roland Vdrum kit Live 8/ MacBookPro 2.5 mhz & 2gb. Motu Ultralite.. Homemade midi-triggering pad for LIVE's filters , clips , & record buttons. Hopelessly hooked on live looping.

Guest

Post by Guest » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:38 am

Reason I nice - really. I have HALion and Kontakt - but often I just fire up reason and the NNXT - why - it is light on the processor, integrates with every environment, and has some decent effects (Rev7000, the vocoder, Scream4 - and combinations of others) Then there is also Malstroem. The other things I make currently less use of.

The only problems are the sound library - which is garbage to 90% (I do not mean the Orckester or Magnetic refills!) and the sequencer - sorry, even a Kawai Q80 is more forward to use in my opinion.

I am waiting for Live public public beta (the on for everyone) - think Live4 and Reason may be THE combination. If Reason 3 soon would add some audio inputs over rewire, perhaps a decent library and maybe a better step sequencer (in which you can play notes into - polyphonic, etc) - wow.

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