Treated Rooms...what a load of - <insert reality here>

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DrXparaMental
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Treated Rooms...what a load of - <insert reality here>

Post by DrXparaMental » Tue May 20, 2008 9:20 pm

I have been around long enough to not just take the word of anyone, even if said anyone is in the vast majority. People keep talking up treated rooms, acoustically idealized, etc. Once I get so far out into the avenue of this consideration, my mind kind of does a u turn when I think to myself, "hey, you know I've heard a good deal of killer hi fi systems in less than idealized spaces and you know what, if it's great equipment, 9 out of 10 times what I hear sounds superb. No matter the environment. If I'm directly positioned in front of and between the speakers, how the hell critical is it to worry about what will return to my ears after I've already heard it?

Bottom line: Is accuracy more so in the ear of the listener, or in the speakers from which the sound is projected to the listener? In my mind there is no greater element of importance than the source concerning any measurable emanation, but it would be foolish for me to negate the various aspects of disruption and thereby the source's contamination with respect to reception.

It would seem like the highest mark in design with respect to audio quality would be to replicate as natural and accurate a sound representation as is possible in any environment.

I am not saying that having a treated area or TRUE studio environment is not better. What I am saying is that we seem to be making a hell of a lot of excuses for speaker inaccuracy when we should just be spending 2-3x as much on speakers to begin with.

SimonPHC
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Post by SimonPHC » Tue May 20, 2008 9:35 pm

Sound behaves by a set of laws described in the laws of physics of sound. That's what they are, laws. e.g. If you put a speaker in a corner, the bass reflected from the speaker to the wall and to your ears will increase the perceived bass by an average of 3dB per surface. so in total the bass you hear might be 9dB louder then it should be.

If you know how to listen for these effects acoustics can have on the sound coming from your speaker, you could do a decent job at mixing music. But It won't be as "perfect" as when you treated the corners with basstraps.

But the key element is knowing what is happening and how to deal with it. It's easier to just treat your room so you don't have to listen to acoustic effects. Is also frees up a lot of your attention that should be going to the mix or the music making itself.

Nonetheless, out of personal experience, making and mixing music is an emotional process. And even 'knowing' your room acoustics becomes a unconscious process.

3dot...
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Post by 3dot... » Tue May 20, 2008 9:39 pm

...While you compose... it's hardly relevant...

but when you wanna mixdown... you want the stuff to sound good ...not just in your room...
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Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Tue May 20, 2008 9:49 pm

I had an ear opening experience.

got my Adams
listened to some mp3s late at night on the first night
the bass was really muddy, almost completely blurred out
"meh, it's mp3, try tomorrow"
tomorrow - same result
hmmmm
bought some Auralex foam, put it under the monitors
fixed in a big way

huh, so overpriced bits of foam are worth a damn, I had no idea.



in tuning a room, the reverb time is an aspect that's talked about. I generally don't play at loud levels where the room reverb is noticable anyway.

I might play with foam behind the monitors, but they're good as is. maybe one of you lot could show up one day, put a piece of foam on a random spot and it'll sound even better. who knows.

hearing is also an incredibly poor sense, the worst, IMO.

IMO it's a process of learning.

it does start with good monitors, then good stands for the monitors, then treatment around the monitors, then treatment for the rest of the room.

or say fuck it and make banging tracks on Creative computer speakers.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

D K
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Post by D K » Tue May 20, 2008 9:56 pm

no matter what gear you have, you will have to learn/acclimate yourself to how your mixes sound in other environments. so, sure, you can mix in a crappy sounding room.
but it is a hell of a lot easier in a treated room (less time spent learning how to mix for the environment)....so i believe it just comes down to where you want to spend the energy and time.

dcease
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Post by dcease » Tue May 20, 2008 10:59 pm

dr.x, i think you are correct to a certain degree. if you are not monitoring loud, and set up "in the triangle", i don't reckon that treatment makes too big of a difference. and more money on speakers is a must, if you take your tunes seriously, whether for fun, or professionally. but if you record in your mixing environment, i believe treatment does help.


either way, it looks cool, and impresses people. perception is 9/10th's after all.

but what do i know, i mix on ipod earbuds :wink:

beats me
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Post by beats me » Tue May 20, 2008 11:11 pm

You can only get good mixes on a Pro Tools HD system mixing with a Lemur. Eveything else is lies.

Khazul
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Post by Khazul » Tue May 20, 2008 11:20 pm

Yes - good speakers help certainly, but buying the biggest best speaker you can get your filthy paws on aint nescessarily going to work best in *your* environment.

IMHO you ned a bit of both - monitors that dont muddy the sound to begin with, and are basically non resonant. Ideally flat, but TBH that less of an issue - you get used to it and good imaging - so it doesnt end up sounding hugely different every time you move.

Now stick them in a room - you have several things to deal with:
Reverb, flutter-echos etc
Direct transmittion of vibration into resonant material on which the speaker are sitting - hence why sticking them on some suitable foam helps as desks are typically terrible for this - big flat bit of wood that just wants to resonate.
Room modes / standing waves - this is down to room dimensions - it basically gives rise hiuge peaks and dips in frequency response - in the worst cases some notes will effectively start room resonance - and just sound out of tune when they aint.

Ironically living rooms tend to make far better studio than most home studio rooms - lots of stuff in them to break up reflections and absorb sounds etc. Hence why my studio is also my living room - aso that the house has one huge room and the rest are small bedroom etc kind of forced that. Its probably also why a good hifi tends to sound ok in them - but 'ok' really depends upon what you are used to.

I generally find minimal treatment is optional panels on first reflecttion points on side walls and ceiling above you (maybe behind monitor too if required), pads under the speaker to stop transmition of vibrations, and ideally bass trapping. The bass strapping is the hardest to sort out (due to space needed) and lack of it often mkaes life hell in smaller room with larger monitors leaving you with very resonant bass frequencies.
Nothing to see here - move along!

philipc
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Post by philipc » Tue May 20, 2008 11:54 pm

Your argument is premised on the notion that the idea of acoustic treatment is to make it all sound good. That isn't the point at all. It is to make it sound highly accurate. Having an acoustically neutral room is therefore important.

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Wed May 21, 2008 12:21 am

I think the room has a far greater impact on what we hear than the playback equipment personally, so I'd say acoustic treatment is a huge benefit.
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blakbeltjonez
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Post by blakbeltjonez » Wed May 21, 2008 12:09 pm

Tarekith wrote:I think the room has a far greater impact on what we hear than the playback equipment personally, so I'd say acoustic treatment is a huge benefit.

ditto .... it's at least as important as the speakers, and the occupant of the chair in front of them. if you don't have a reasonably decent mixing environment, you are just guessing. and the louder you mix, the more the room matters, the more the box holding the speaker components matter, the more the surface the speakers are sitting on matters. if you can hold it down to 85-90 dB SPL, that's a good place to start if you don't have a well tuned room to mix in.

for the end user (listener), it isn't all that critical - part of the art of being an engineer is to make sure the music translates well on different systems.

Landser
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Re: Treated Rooms...what a load of - <insert reality here>

Post by Landser » Wed May 21, 2008 12:53 pm

DrXparaMental wrote:If I'm directly positioned in front of and between the speakers, how the hell critical is it to worry about what will return to my ears after I've already heard it?
That's a good question. The answer is: because the human ear does not and cannot differentiate between the direct and the diffused sound from the room.
It is heard alltogether - and not even the most analytical and best trained ears can overcome that and subtract the room acoustics by imagination. Therefore what you hear in a non optimized room, is the room + speakers, not the speakers. And the impact of the room is HUGE. Many, many different decibels and different time delays in every frequency range.

The second important point:
for mixing it's not necessary, that it sounds good. It is necessary to hear the speakers, not the room. If you know your speakers and how they translate, then you can make very good mixes on cheap monitors. But only: if you hear the monitors and not the room.

DrXparaMental
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Post by DrXparaMental » Thu May 22, 2008 1:21 am

These are flat out (no pun intended :) ) the best responses I have ever gotten on this forum. As long as I have my head in the game, this forum is unquestionably the best audio forum that I participate on. It's just that this time around, this information is exceedingly on target and inspires me to at very least attempt a change in my ever dysfunctional DIY studio environment. I wish you all could see this room I use. I would be willing to bet SERIOUS money that totally damaging nightmares would dominate the most peaceful of sleeping heads here as a result.

Thanks everyone. Very much.

laird
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Post by laird » Thu May 22, 2008 2:08 am

I think of the goal not so much "listening perfection" as "listening neutrality".

Think of this: your room has a phase problem that cuts freqs around the 220 hz area. When mixing, you (unknowingly) compensate by turning up the EQ around 220 hz.

Now your track gets played in two peoples' living rooms.

Person A's room also cuts around 220 hz. Great, your mix sounds fine.
person B's room boosts around 220 hz. Suddenly, your kick drums sound excessively boomy.

3dot...
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Post by 3dot... » Thu May 22, 2008 2:10 am

laird wrote:I think of the goal not so much "listening perfection" as "listening neutrality".

Think of this: your room has a phase problem that cuts freqs around the 220 hz area. When mixing, you (unknowingly) compensate by turning up the EQ around 220 hz.

Now your track gets played in two peoples' living rooms.

Person A's room also cuts around 220 hz. Great, your mix sounds fine.
person B's room boosts around 220 hz. Suddenly, your kick drums sound excessively boomy.
Reference... I think, is a word that sums this whole thread up...
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