DAW Shootout - pretty interesting.

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu May 29, 2008 3:53 am

Yep, just stupid, logic Studio should easily be the 'value for money' winner. Interface wise, I always thought Sonar was screwed, yet that could be because I don't feel as comfortable in Word as most business people do...

This kind od thing is too subjective, IMO Logic and live would be top 2 with Sonar and Cubase closely behind.

Though again I agree, far too much mousing in Live, and there's simply no way to quickly see all tracks with automation visible, then zoom in on one to edit, zoom out, zoom in on the next to edit etc. It's all mousing and resizing. You fold tracks and you can't see the automation.... blah. Key commands cannot help the Arrangement View be less far behind the competition.

kenporter
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Post by kenporter » Thu May 29, 2008 4:37 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Though again I agree, far too much mousing in Live, and there's simply no way to quickly see all tracks with automation visible, then zoom in on one to edit, zoom out, zoom in on the next to edit etc. It's all mousing and resizing. You fold tracks and you can't see the automation.... blah. Key commands cannot help the Arrangement View be less far behind the competition.
Hmm, I've used Cubase for a long time and you do have that same problem. I think before Cubase 4 came out it was even worse with automation, meaning you had an audio track and a midi track, where in large projects it could get really messy. So, really nothing too different from what Live is doing. The only thing that really bothers me in the arrange window is that if you want to drag a track past the last displayed track on the monitor it doesn't sroll. This means that you will have to drag the track down to the last track, let go, scroll and then drag the track further down. That really is the one thing driving me crazy in Live, well and I would like some folder tracks. Anyway, this is all feature requests again. I totally agree though that a DAW is very subjective and I have quite a few friends who just don't understand my excitment of Live over any other DAW. Someday, they too will get it. :)

Ken

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu May 29, 2008 7:04 am

kenporter wrote: Hmm, I've used Cubase for a long time and you do have that same problem. I think before Cubase 4 came out it was even worse with automation, meaning you had an audio track and a midi track, where in large projects it could get really messy. So, really nothing too different from what Live is doing.
Think Magnifying glass that actually zooms both horizontally and vertically. Live simply does not do this well at all. In any other DAW with a magnifying glass tool, you can zoom in and out of tracks in the arrangement style page, and edit automation. In Live it's cumbersome at best.

Sure, most DAWs have MIDI and track based automation, I have no problem with that. Though in Live it's Session, and Arrangement based automation with little or no support for MIDI input in the Session View.

Anyway, this is off track, things like audio and MID routing between tracks are sooo much better in Live that it offsets the negatives. 8)

andydes
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Post by andydes » Thu May 29, 2008 9:24 am

Obviously this is a DAW comparison, so they'll be scoring on regular DAW features.

If you click on each category, you get a breakdown of the scores, which makes it slightly easier to see where they're coming from. So you may think they've been unfair about Live's midi handling, then look at what Live's marked down for (event editors, step sequencing, score view, event filters, sys ex, etc.) and it makes more sense.

Although they could use more sections on what's really important. How inspiring is it? How easy to use is it? How fun is it?

However, in some areas it just seems wrong. For example:

Live scores 0/5 for meter scales (obviously never dragged the mixer window up then).
But it scores a whopping 5/5 for everyone's favorite topic... *drum roll*... Parameter automation!

Heh, heh, heh.

forge
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Post by forge » Thu May 29, 2008 9:37 am

Machinesworking wrote: Anyway, this is off track, things like audio and MID routing between tracks are sooo much better in Live that it offsets the negatives. 8)
the kind of break down you have posted - as in, what is wrong and why, would be invaluable to Ableton

I have a feeling GUI is something they are probably giving a lot of attention to at the moment

Live 7 has made the issue more pressing than ever

so don;t hold back - the more this issue is broken down and spelled out, the better the chances of them coming up with a really good solution! ;-)
Last edited by forge on Thu May 29, 2008 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

forge
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Post by forge » Thu May 29, 2008 9:38 am

andydes wrote: But it scores a whopping 5/5 for everyone's favorite topic... *drum roll*... Parameter automation!
8O

have they actually used Live?

andydes
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Post by andydes » Thu May 29, 2008 9:53 am

I swear. Check under General - Track management.

Good, eh.

NapalmBob
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Post by NapalmBob » Thu May 29, 2008 11:50 am

I personally don't get programs like Cubase, Logic, Sonar ('traditional' DAW's), I use Live, FLStudio and Reason because I find their interfaces and features complement each other. And I like to work in patterns rather than lay out a track and say "here's the start, here's the end" and work in that order.

With Live/FL/Reason I can make a track in whatever order I damn feel like it. And I find their setup, using VST's, assigning MIDI controls, integrating hardware and performing with them far easier than in any 'traditional" DAW.

And I guess it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, a DAW is a very personal choice. Shit, I still break out ReBirth every now and then. I don't anyone should base their choice on anyone else's opinion (expert or otherwise).

See what I did there? I just totally discredited myself...

sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Thu May 29, 2008 2:04 pm

im pretty sure they got stevie wonder to do the Live benchmarc

gomi
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Re: DAW Shootout - pretty interesting.

Post by gomi » Thu May 29, 2008 2:11 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
gomi wrote:whoever made that chart is a moron.
I'd be curious about why, I've only used Live for years and years.
Having used all those daws myself I would not rate Protools LE
higher then ANY of them.

period.

HD maybe.. LE? not a chance in hell, it's garbage.

gomi
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Post by gomi » Thu May 29, 2008 2:13 pm

kenporter wrote: I think he's referring to Pro Tools M-Powered.
mpowered and le are identical.
the only difference is the digicore audio driver is opened up for select
m-audio devices and you need an ilok as well.. where as with LE
your digi hardware is the dongle

jlgrimes
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Post by jlgrimes » Thu May 29, 2008 2:16 pm

condra wrote:
kenporter wrote: it's so far ahead when it comes to workflow and inspiration. To me those are the most important aspects of making music.
Inspiration - I agree 100%

Workflow - No way IMO. Live is still far too mouse orientated in general, and editing in Arrangement view is painfull compared to Sonar/Cubase.

Live has session view. Thats what sets it apart the most as far as Im concerned. Only for session view, I would be a Logic user.
I agree with you 110% on the mouse issue. Live suffers alot from:

1. having to manually arm everything (Reason, Logic, and Sonar has auto arming capabilities),

2. not being able to change I/O parameters or monitoring parameters on multiple tracks simultaneously.

3. no fader grouping or quick groups,

4. No horizontal or vertical restriction movement in Arrange Window when moving clips by pressing a key modifier (great for making precise edits and moving stuff to different tracks,

7. no nudging,

8. No offline processing for audio clips,

9. No snapshot automation,

10. No automation curves in Session View (which really needs it since you can't record stuff realtime in there),

11. poor Groove Quantize and swing implementation (poor auto quantize implementation at that because you can't quantize at 1/32nd. Even some offline quantize is bad like no 1/32nd triplets),

12. Poor track management functions in arrange window. No Folder tracks. No auto fit tracks to Window function.

13. keybinding options could use improvements (Auto Quantize is hard to get to).

14. No default new clip length. (what percentage of users uses 1 bar most of the time for loops? I would guess many people are more likely to use 2 bars, 4 bars, 8 bars or even 16 bars) This would help reduce the mousing issue some.

15. Not able to minimize VST windows (Sonar gives you a lot of control on this. You can even make them transparent temporarily).

16. Must use mouse to specify where you want Now Time to go. (In Sonar just hit F5 and type where you want to go).

17. Poor snap and quantize options (in the arrange view). Compare with Pro Tools and Sonar, you can snap to about anything (ticks, samples, warp markers, milliseconds, markers, clip edges to name a few). Only being able to snap to musical time is limiting.

Live is great for creating (because of Session View, Warping, Responsive Audio Engine, and Drum Racks), but when it comes too traditional studio tracking and mixing, Live leaves a good amount to be desired. It is possible to track and mix in Live but things like this makes it frustrating.


The mouse is good for learning new functions for the first time and for certain things like drawing and moving notes it is efficient, but to really move with a program, key commands are what are truly needed and a good solid and complete keybinding scheme of things. Sonar has keybindings available for about every function it has and gives you the almost total control on making your own combinations. Live needs to do the same to be a good DAW.
Last edited by jlgrimes on Sat May 31, 2008 12:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

Pasha
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Post by Pasha » Thu May 29, 2008 2:22 pm

sweetjesus wrote:im pretty sure they got stevie wonder to do the Live benchmarc
Or his dog... :roll:
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vicz
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Bonkers

Post by vicz » Thu May 29, 2008 11:16 pm

WTF! Did they mix up the column headings? For the DAWs I have personal experience of I disagree with pretty much every rating for every product. Not just the overall rating, but strengths and weaknesses of various features across products. Its just wrong, very wrong.

leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Fri May 30, 2008 1:19 am

I've used all of these DAWS and I think that overall many things are right, and specifically you get a breakdown of each category by clicking on it, but some things have perhaps more weighting than they should.

DAWS with surround sound capability score a huge advantage in that section, and certain 'special functions' seem to be worth more than other, for example, Logic definately has the best softsynths and FX plugins in that category and actually scores 5/5 on that but in the summarized breakdown it comes out below Sonar and Cubase because of other 'special functions' which seems illogical unless you click on that section and see the detailed analysis.

Also - Live Suite addresses this quite a bit in favour of Live but they only judge the basic Live 7.

What they cannot measure is the workflow and pure 'magicalness' of Live and it's session view which is what makes the software special. Every other daw is the linear DAW variety and most of us agree that Live breaks the monotony and rigidity of the linear timeline and is a big attraction, the drop and drag sample on the flyness, the speed of creative composition and such is just not accounted for in this test, which I think is pretty valid for most traditional DAWS but could never hope to measure Live in a positive way.

I think though that in terms of Sonar, Logic and Cubase over Protools LE it is spot on and a reason why people should shop around and not fall for the 'industry standard' line every time.
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