Any Way To Get Around the 128 Para. Automation Limitation?

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:56 am

I just bought a Remote SL 25 -- and I really like it, but am for the first time bummed about Live's 128 parameter automation limit.

Has anyone done a workaround for their plugs that DO have more than 128? I was wondering if anyone has resorted to using two controllers -- one a Novation w/ Automapping and another straight up MIDI controller for the parameters beyond 128. For instance, I figure, I could use a Novation control map to control the main parameters of, say, my CS-80V, but my UC-33e to control the ring modulators...

Olga · Post by **Olga** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:57 am

Naive Teen Idol wrote:I just bought a Remote SL 25 -- and I really like it, but am for the first time bummed about Live's 128 parameter automation limit.

Has anyone done a workaround for their plugs that DO have more than 128? I was wondering if anyone has resorted to using two controllers -- one a Novation w/ Automapping and another straight up MIDI controller for the parameters beyond 128. For instance, I figure, I could use a Novation control map to control the main parameters of, say, my CS-80V, but my UC-33e to control the ring modulators...

The most idiotic constant inane thing asked for on this forum is beyond 128. Seriously stupid and insane. Somehow Depeche Mode and NIN were able to pull off some of the best music ever made with next to no control or tops 16 channels of shit and you've got all these prima donnas asking for 500 channels of controls on vsti's & controllers.

Beyond laughable.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:32 am

Olga wrote:
Naive Teen Idol wrote:I just bought a Remote SL 25 -- and I really like it, but am for the first time bummed about Live's 128 parameter automation limit.

Has anyone done a workaround for their plugs that DO have more than 128? I was wondering if anyone has resorted to using two controllers -- one a Novation w/ Automapping and another straight up MIDI controller for the parameters beyond 128. For instance, I figure, I could use a Novation control map to control the main parameters of, say, my CS-80V, but my UC-33e to control the ring modulators...

The most idiotic constant inane thing asked for on this forum is beyond 128. Seriously stupid and insane. Somehow Depeche Mode and NIN were able to pull off some of the best music ever made with next to no control or tops 16 channels of shit and you've got all these prima donnas asking for 500 channels of controls on vsti's & controllers.

Beyond laughable.

Right, when a VSTi has a basic element that has been modifiable via MIDI since day 1 of MIDI (cutoff in Attack for instance) is not capable of being automated, it's laughable...... people busk with acoustic guitars olga, isn't fucking retarded that people want more than that?

Besides, Depache mode were using real synths, with dedicated interfaces that make sense, not soft synths that require mousing. I get your point, but you have to admit there's a huge element of "when I was a kid we lived in a box in the middle of the road!"

Naive Teen Idol, the limit is not circumvented by more hardware controllers, it's 128 per plug in period. Reactor allows you to assign parameters of your own choosing, just read up on it. Plenty of other synths have useful workarounds: Most NI synths, Uh-He, Ohm Force, and others. Some however are crippled a bit by this feature lack in Live. Logic, Cubase, Sonar, etc.etc. allow you to use track automation on a soft synth or FX without this limit, but with Live the only way to get around it I know of on mac is to get Kore, Kore allows you to assign 128 parameters within it's internal mapping, so you can assign the most useful ones.
I remember PC folk doing a work around involving bohms MIDI yolk or something as well.

Bagatell · Post by **Bagatell** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:44 am

Wrap your synth in Chainer or energyXT. This also allows you to assign parameters rather than learn them.

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:40 am

Olga wrote:
Naive Teen Idol wrote:I just bought a Remote SL 25 -- and I really like it, but am for the first time bummed about Live's 128 parameter automation limit.

Has anyone done a workaround for their plugs that DO have more than 128? I was wondering if anyone has resorted to using two controllers -- one a Novation w/ Automapping and another straight up MIDI controller for the parameters beyond 128. For instance, I figure, I could use a Novation control map to control the main parameters of, say, my CS-80V, but my UC-33e to control the ring modulators...

The most idiotic constant inane thing asked for on this forum is beyond 128. Seriously stupid and insane. Somehow Depeche Mode and NIN were able to pull off some of the best music ever made with next to no control or tops 16 channels of shit and you've got all these prima donnas asking for 500 channels of controls on vsti's & controllers.

Beyond laughable.

troll

in the depeche mode days I imagine a room full of dudes waiting for their one part to turn one knob during the song. I picture a totally bored guy in a studio waiting 3 minutes before the song gets to the right part and then wwwoooowwww he tweaks the filter. sounds like automation to me, it's just done by people. but since we don't have a whole bunch of dudes sitting inside of our computer to touch those knobs THAT WE CAN'T ACTUALLY F*ING TOUCH!!!! it helps to have automation.

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:03 pm

Sorry, yeah -- this isn't about me needing 5,000 different parameters at once. It's about me having a CS-80V, which has a very cool ring modulator with an envelope that I can't automate in Live b/c the five parameters that control it are the last ones among the 300 or so the VST has. Same goes for the low-pass frequency cutoff and the resonance.

If all you do is play sounds on your keyboard w/ a mod wheel, obv. having only 128 parameters won't be a problem. But if "playing" sounds means to you what it does to me--that is, while you're playing the keys, you're also manipulating elements of the sound--then if the major parameters aren't among the first 128 the plugin assigns, it definitely will be.

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:47 pm

Depeche Mode aren't exactly known for sweeping resonances and massive automation in their sounds, so even though I enjoy their music a lot, it's not really a good comparison.

It's a bit like saying Sgt. Peppers is one the best albums ever recorded and it was only done on a 4 track *with lots of bouncing* so why do you need more than 8 audio and MIDI tracks. Don't you think The Beatles, who were famous for embracing new technologies, (mellotrons, flanging, 8 track recording eventually, reversing, editing, mashing in all manner of exotic sounds etc., early users of moog modular etc, etc) would have recorded the album on a 24 track or computer if it had been available at the time ?? I'm 100% sure they would, they hated the limitations of 4 track, hence their own, costly aborted attempt to build an 8 track Apple Studio.

Technology progresses and Live is behind in this respect. It might not affect everybody in every application, but it affects enough people to keep raising the point.

This is like the fanboys at Cubase who keep saying they don't want 192 Khz recording, JUST BECAUSE .... . Well, I agree that it is largely a placebo effect, but when DAWS such as Reaper and Tracktion *not to mention Live* offer it at at a 3rd of the price, and given that they already have the code (as Nuendo has 192 Khz) and it would be easy to just paste that into Cubase at next to nothing. But the majority of the forum doesn't get this logic, they just say 'well, who needs 192 Khz anyway.' or 'I'd rather they spend money fixing bugs or bringing in important features' - I AGREE but given that this would cost nothing, introduce it already !!! Common sense flew out of the window in the face of the fanboys yet again ....

rhythminmind · Post by **rhythminmind** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:43 pm

Bidule is the best solution i have found.
http://plogue.com/index.php?option=cont ... &Itemid=35

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:18 pm

If the synth function has a midi learn, then you can set up a midi track and send the CC automation to that synth track. Agreed with the above comments...it's not like you *need* 128 parameters, but if the critical parameter you want is set to 129, then it's no good for you. More synths should have this be configurable. Thank goodness for the midi learn function.

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:57 pm

Ableton wrote: Live 7—What's New

Ableton Live 7 renews the core of Live, with enhancements to the audio engine including 64-bit mix summing, new and improved devices with side-chaining capability, better MIDI timing, and hardware integration. We have also included the most-requested features, such as time signature changes, video export, multiple automation lanes and much more. Version 7 marks the arrival of the new "Drum Rack" which streamlines beat production via an easy drag-and-drop interface and offers native sliced audio and REX file support, bringing endless creative possibilities to beat lovers.

...Ableton... get your priorities straight !

Tympanic · Post by **Tympanic** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:44 pm

...maybe just use a Synth that is actually designed well concerning the vst parameter automation issue.
Personally i recommend using KarmaFX which has by far the best parameter integration i can think of. Map a parameter in the Synth - have it mapped into live´s controller list. There´s no other synth i know of that supports this idea. I really wonder why....

Cheers

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:35 am

As I said at the outset, part of me thinks for the VST's I have for which I need to control more than 128 parameters I should just create MIDI templates for.

Yes, that's not Automap and isn't a two-way conversation. But the Remote SL still wins out over others b/c it has LCD screens with parameters I can read.

naph · Post by **naph** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:35 pm

Olga wrote:......

The most idiotic constant inane thing asked for on this forum is beyond 128. Seriously stupid and insane. Somehow Depeche Mode and NIN were able to pull off some of the best music ever made with next to no control or tops 16 channels of shit and you've got all these prima donnas asking for 500 channels of controls on vsti's & controllers.

Beyond laughable.

you didn't really get the point.

no one of us want to control more than 128 parameters at once.

we just want to be able to automate let's say the Oscillator 1 decay on microtonic, or the ADSR envelope on albino. prett ybasic stuff in my opinion.
but since these parameters fall over the first 128, you'll never manage to do it in live, as of now.

if every user understood this, instead of saying "why the fuck you need to automate more than 128 parameter at once" maybe we already had this feature implemented in live6.

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=74495

Mike Goodwin · Post by **Mike Goodwin** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:17 pm

Ok call me Donna if you want to.

I like to automate the basic features in my VST's that happen to be above 128.

friend_kami · Post by **friend_kami** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:31 am

Mike Goodwin wrote:Ok call me Donna if you want to.

I like to automate the basic features in my VST's that happen to be above 128.

same.
such divas we are.

Any Way To Get Around the 128 Para. Automation Limitation?

Any Way To Get Around the 128 Para. Automation Limitation?

Re: Any Way To Get Around the 128 Para. Automation Limitatio

Re: Any Way To Get Around the 128 Para. Automation Limitatio

Re: Any Way To Get Around the 128 Para. Automation Limitatio

Re: Any Way To Get Around the 128 Para. Automation Limitatio