Playing live as an instrument (Rant)

[Timur]

not at all like what a laptop performance is. Because even the crappiest laptop performer is triggering parts and altering things, making decisions as to what happens next and how quickly.

If you want to draw an analogy it is more similar to watching a movie editor at work. A movie editor who also acts certain parts in the film

That's great, honestly, I'm with you there. But you have more trust in "crappiest laptop performers" than I have or you simply know people being more dedicated than I do. Many electronic bands I know do lots of playback with just some sound here and there. When they have a singer and guitarist you can be quite sure that those are performing live, but the electronics department often is reduced to hitting play at the right moment. One of my friends was once asked to replace a keyboarder/main-electronics guy for one live-show, his job was to look cute and press play on the IPod (meanwhile the singer and guitarist were playing live). People had fun and he did look cool and cute, but you could have put any monkey there as long as he had the acting skills.

Unless the electronica people really take the risk of controlling single aspects of their performance the way you mention and as demonstrated by Pitch Black in their video there may be great music, but there is no live awe factor (which is why many rock bands don't even need an electronics guy on stage when using electronics, but use drum-pad triggering or someone off-stage is triggering things).

[Angstrom]

his job was to look cute and press play on the IPod (meanwhile the singer and guitarist were playing live). People had fun and he did look cool and cute, but you could have put any monkey there as long as he had the acting skills.

this is the crux - you devalue the 'press play' guy, because you view yourself as a valued artist with years of skills. That's crap. The monkey has an important role to play and not 'everyone' can do it. It is a specific role that a person needs to be right for .. it may be genetics or it may be drugs.


In the band "happy mondays", they had a guy who just jumped around looking stoned and hitting a tambourine out of time. People loved that guy and still do. Most of the UK public could name "Bez" much quicker than they could name the drummer of the stone roses, or even the bassplayer.

The "Bez factor" was important to the band, and their crowd because he was a visual visceral link to the audience. He embodied the persona of the band by simply dancing like a twat. Now, they could have picked any one off the manchester scene full of E and used that person instead of Bez. But do you really think they couldn't have done the same with the drummer?
musicians are everywhere, there are only 8 houses on my street and 3 musicians. Yet every musician seems to think they are gods gift to the world. Get real.

Over-valuing simple learned skills, boring tedious yawn inducing skills that anyone with time on their hands and no imagination could learn. I learned a little music theory, I learned to play some guitar, and a I learned a little PHP, it isn't hard to do any of them if you put a little time in. No biggie.

What takes music theory and practice to the next level is PERSONALITY.
that's where the monkey boy comes in.

It's why models can have careers of just simply being thin and having non-distorted faces. Because punters actually value that stuff, it is self-involved and self-important musicians who think they are the center of the universe and try and de-value that .

they have a nice face and some charisma , you have some tricks you learned. Are the tricks really that much better than being a 'natural' ?

[fatrabbit]

Bez was an exception though - people remember him because he danced like a twat for no real reason. Plus the fact he had a sort of career afterwards where he would appear on things like Top 100 programmes on TV (a tedious list of the best films interjected with commentary from comedians for example) and people would say "oh look there's that guy who danced around with happy mondays!".

I do generally agree with what you're saying though.

[oblique strategies]

they have a nice face and some charisma , you have some tricks you learned. Are the tricks really that much better than being a 'natural' ?

This gets right back to the point I was making in my earlier post: this artificial "us vs. them" stance.

Live PA is better than DJ
Vinyl is better than CD/laptop
Sweating your butt off is better than playing it cool
Playing with electronic drums is inferior to acoustic drums
Playing to a drum machine is faking it
Playing to backing tracks is cheating
DJ is better than Live PA

And on & on it goes.

If the music, & even more importantly, the experience is good, then it matters very little to the audience how it was made. What matters is if the overall experience is comprised of elements that seem appropriate, & which combine to contribute to a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts.

A good point was raised about how people who make music experience it very differently than people who do not make music. But I think we all know what it is like to experience a great performance, regardless of what was being performed -be it a Live PA, a wicked DJ, a play, etc., which transcends our learned ability to comprehend the mechanics of how it is being done.

The thing is that we are people on the stage, so we're performers by default. So let's perform! Otherwise we could not only hit play on the space bar, but we could just play a DVD of us standing still while our music played on the soundtrack! We can mail it in & stay home to watch a good movie...

[Timur]

this is the crux - you devalue the 'press play' guy, because you view yourself as a valued artist with years of skills. That's crap.

No, I devalue the 'press play' guy because he bores me, me being just a plain audience guy. Especially the typical two-man combo of one electronic guy plus singer is mostly boring, albeit I have seen some great concerts with this combo, too.

In fact I am just preparing myself for that kind of concert to happen in a few weeks. It will be the electronic guy with his laptop and me on vocals, guitar and even more electronics. It's gonna be live and it's probably gonna be less than stellar. Hehe.

The "Bez factor" was important to the band, and their crowd because he was a visual visceral link to the audience. He embodied the persona of the band by simply dancing like a twat. Now, they could have picked any one off the manchester scene full of E and used that person instead of Bez. But do you really think they couldn't have done the same with the drummer?

You are not talking about the 'press play' guy here, but about a "dancing" performer (Prodigy had 3 of those in a 4 men band!), that's a whole lot different.

I appreciate someone dancing around while his playback is doing its job more than someone faking to be playing while still the playback is doing the job. Call it more real, authentic, frank or simply call it more entertaining because at least 'something' is happening that justifies spending an evening at a place you paid entry fee for.

[Angstrom]

this is the crux - you devalue the 'press play' guy, because you view yourself as a valued artist with years of skills. That's crap.

No, I devalue the 'press play' guy because he bores me, me being just a plain audience guy.

yes, but contrast that aginst how you described him

People had fun and he did look cool and cute, but you could have put any monkey there as long as he had the acting skills.

so he was 'acting' (I asume that involved some kind of movement) and people were having fun.
where did he fail again?

It seems to me that if people enjoyed it then it was a success.

[andydes]

Pretending to do something he wasn't?

Now plenty of bands have pre recorded backing. Why not press play and ride the unicycle on stage or something?

I've been offered the job of play button presser for my friends band's next gig. If I do it, I'll hit the button then get back to my drink til the end of the song. If you have singer, guitarist, bassist, keyboard players as well, who needs to look at me anyway. (The singers quite hot).

[Angstrom]

I've been offered the job of play button presser for my friends band's next gig. If I do it, I'll hit the button then get back to my drink til the end of the song. If you have singer, guitarist, bassist, keyboard players as well, who needs to look at me anyway. (The singers quite hot).

I suggest wearing one of those big hands which sports supporters wear.



I also suggest moonwalking off the stage.

[andydes]

Nice. Would be good to fashion a 4 foot high transport controller to go with it. Have to have your moment in the spot light.

To be honest, I'm not really sure they were serious, I think they can handle it themselves. If they want anything slightly more involved, Id be happy to help out.

Moonwalking, good idea too. Basically anything like that I fully approve of. It's just the fake knob turning I wouldn't have any part of. Unless it's the size of an oil drum of course.

[ryansupak]

I spent lots and lots and lots of time sorting this out -- figuring out how to unify my physical gestures with the act of music making. (Before Live I used SP-808s, as a side note.)

Ultimately I concluded that you can only control a few things with any degree of nuance, so I went back to the turntables. I'm sure somebody could (indeed, people do all the time) cobble together a special sort of instrument in Live with the "sweet spot" amount of control and limitations, but my personal "artistic journey" doesn't involve that degree of tinkering.

I miss the ability to tweak things to the Nth degree, but I love how easy it is to connect with regular people. It's a social sort of art, like the parlor piano of the olden days.

rs

[Angstrom]

I spent lots and lots and lots of time sorting this out -- figuring out how to unify my physical gestures with the act of music making. (Before Live I used SP-808s, as a side note.)

Ultimately I concluded that you can only control a few things with any degree of nuance, so I went back to the turntables. I'm sure somebody could (indeed, people do all the time) cobble together a special sort of instrument in Live with the "sweet spot" amount of control and limitations, but my personal "artistic journey" doesn't involve that degree of tinkering.

I miss the ability to tweak things to the Nth degree, but I love how easy it is to connect with regular people. It's a social sort of art, like the parlor piano of the olden days.

rs

I think trying to tweak things to the nth degree is where a lot one-man-bands fall down. With just one person it is not possible to control everything and still have time to deliver a good performance. In theory and imagination 'playing everything' is great, but the reality is - we cannot play drums, bass, guitar, synths, lead, sing and mix at the same time and also deliver an engaging performance.

one person playing everything in a complex song is an entertaining fallacy, IMO.

I simply play 'electric piano' over the top of a dubbed up backing. Obviously I am the one doing the dubbing up.
By restricting my instrument choice and keeping the 'background' minimal I try to draw a direct link between me and the music. The first 10 minutes is just me playing electric piano noises through a looper. Sort of driving the point home to the audience "this man is making this noise" - and then I bring a few simple beats in underneath.

[landrvr1]

omfg




http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZL93u3gCKA




Wasn't someone mentioning something about looking like you're doing your taxes whilst performing?



This performance is either total and utter genius, the most obtuse arrogant presentation imaginable, or complete shit. I can't decide. Maybe all 3...



The music, BTW, is fucking killer.



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[Spackled Bat]

Wasn't someone mentioning something about looking like you're doing your taxes whilst performing?

It's been done.

http://www.last.fm/music/Pimmon/Electronic+Tax+Return

Recorded live at Australias Big Day Out festival.
If you listen to the last song they announce that he did his taxes during the performance.
Says he got $86 back.

[synnack]

Another electronic band who's performance I think needs discussion is Kraftwerk.

I mean, these guys are the godfathers of electronic music performance... and they barely move at all and show no expression. Yet, people go absolutely nuts for it. (like me)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kXD6Gtinvbc

It also begs the point that sometimes what makes a band interesting is that you DONT know what or if they're doing anything.

If you projected your laptop screen up so people could see exactly what you do would it be more, or less interesting of a show?

"The job of the artist is always to deepen the mystery."
-Francis Bacon

[landrvr1]

Another electronic band who's performance I think needs discussion is Kraftwerk.

I mean, these guys are the godfathers of electronic music performance... and they barely move at all and show no expression. Yet, people go absolutely nuts for it. (like me)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kXD6Gtinvbc

It also begs the point that sometimes what makes a band interesting is that you DONT know what or if they're doing anything.

If you projected your laptop screen up so people could see exactly what you do would it be more, or less interesting of a show?

"The job of the artist is always to deepen the mystery."
-Francis Bacon

Umm.

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ht=dignity

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