Calling all Guitar Rig gurus

[nebulae]

I just got a new hollow body guitar and GR3. I'm trying to figure out some sweet combos and techniques for tone and I wanted your opinions. In general, are you placing the distortion effects before or after the matched amps/cabs? Where do you put your delays and verbs? How about your compressor? How about the modulations (flanger/chorus/etc)?

[nebulae]

Here's a good read...do you find this to be true in GR as well?

http://www.geofex.com/effxfaq/fxorder.htm

[daniel_grieff]

Hey man, when Im using GR I try and replicate the kind of setup I would like to have irl. If only I could afford it.
In terms of distortion, im a big fan of not actually using the distortion pedals. Instead I like to use one of the tube amps, like the citrus, and use a volume pedal component to boost the signal so it runs hot into the amp. This provides what I feel is a more natural saturation, instead of rawk distortion. If thats what you want, you probably want to use one of the distortion modules.
I think you should probably use trial and error with your delay and reverb placement. I like to put delay pre-amp and reverb post. This, I guess, is so that the delayed signal gets distorted, instead of delaying a distorted signal. With the verb I guess Im using it to emulate an amp being placed inside a good room, it doesnt always sound that great though...
Finally, compression, I use (if at all) pre-all FX. So that the raw signal of the guitar is being compressed before any madness happens to it. I guess if you make a particularily crazy FX patch that leaps around all over the place then you might want to compress post FX instead.

Hope this is at all helpful chap!

Dan

[nebulae]

thanks, Dan, appreciate the input...all helpful tips.

[dave999z]

This provides what I feel is a more natural saturation

I think it's so interesting that via this virtual analog stuff you can pretty damn well simulate the sound of recording a tube amp with a mic.

But virtual analog can't yet, IMO, mimic real tubes and speakers if you actually want to fill a room or club with real sound at performance amplitude. i.e., can't just plug your guitar into an interface into a PC back out to the interface out to a PA, and expect it to sound like a real guitar amp in club. just doesn't cut it. can certainly use a notebook for effects. can even run Guitar Rig. but if you don't then also run it through an actual guitar amp and cabinet, it doesn't work in a club. granted I've only heard that a couple times and only tried it myself once - but it sounded so dry and fake, or something.

sorry for the rambling.

[nebulae]

^ thanks for your opinion. I've seen a lot of demos where it does sound convincing, but yeah, I think it takes that extra effort to get it right.

But I also think there are many links in the chain that can be weak - weak cable, weak inputs into the PC, line level instead of high-z inputs (wrong impedance), not enoug gain, and then the output gets mixed poorly in the club system. You gotto account for all of that when going virtual.

[ewistrand]

[But virtual analog can't yet, IMO, mimic real tubes and speakers if you actually want to fill a room or club with real sound at performance amplitude. i.e., can't just plug your guitar into an interface into a PC back out to the interface out to a PA, and expect it to sound like a real guitar amp in club. just doesn't cut it. can certainly use a notebook for effects. can even run Guitar Rig. but if you don't then also run it through an actual guitar amp and cabinet, it doesn't work in a club. granted I've only heard that a couple times and only tried it myself once - but it sounded so dry and fake, or something.

Ah- when most of your amp simulators sound unnatural is when you run them through guitar amps and cabs; those are emulated already. Running GR/AT/RV or any of those through a normal guitar amp will make everything sound boxy and with no detail whatsoever.

The only time I bring a real amp along is 1) if I'm just playing guitar and no synths, and 2) I don't feel like hauling my 12 space rack and powered cabinets around; then I use my Boogie combo instead.

ew

[daniel_grieff]

Actually my marshall DFX250 amp has a line input on the back of it. I use that instead of the regular input and it does make a marked difference.
But of course a speaker in a guitar amp is designed differently to that in a hi-fi or PA cab. If you ever play a cd through the designated cd input some of them have the music sounds hell of poor.
Anyways, I dont really use the cab simulation or mics ever. All I use GR for now is the saturation/distortion, which is much better than my marshall provides. And also much less horrid.
I used to use the delays and stuff a lot more, until i discovered how much more intuitive Lives native stuff is. Also I based my whole set around the loop machine until that started reliably crashing.
Try a keyboard amp! It works much better than a guitar amp...

[nebulae]

^ so the Guitar Rig loop machine crashes? That sucks - I was really hoping to use that...

[Tone Deft]

^ so the Guitar Rig loop machine crashes? That sucks - I was really hoping to use that...

because Live lacks proper looping tools.


IMO just mimic what people do with real gear. GR is meant to simulate real life, so the designers would make the signal chain interact like real gear.

use your ears.

I have a guitar snob friend who gigs regularly and records with whatever bands, he plays out with GR and prefers it over the alternatives, his $0.02 by proxy.

[ewistrand]

I used to use the delays and stuff a lot more, until i discovered how much more intuitive Lives native stuff is. Also I based my whole set around the loop machine until that started reliably crashing. :)

The 3.1.1 update (released last week) should fix that.

Try a keyboard amp! It works much better than a guitar amp...

Absolutely.

ew

[daniel_grieff]

I do all my looping using dummy clips now. When I was in the studio the GRs Rig Kontrol buttons were audiable no matter how loud we run the amp(s). Also pretty much every GR update so far is supposed to have fixed the looper, but it never did for me.
I have just downloaded 3.1.1 so Ill test it tonight and be happy to be proven wrong. Even if it is too late for me to turn my back on dummy clips. Tell you what though, the looper is is gold for inspiration and improvisation...

[Homebelly]

GR 3 Is the tit's!!!
I tend to use my Pod more for straight guitar tones as it is just a bit more convenient and comes with out any CPU tax. But for every thing else GR is my go to..
The best aspects of GR are the Splitter and the modulators,,
You can use the splitter to create all kinds of multiband FX..
There is also a cross over splitter that will send low frequencies one way and high frequencies another so you can process the differently..
Using soe of the modulators to automate the Wha or the Pro filter also yields some very cool sounds..
Okay..
I gotta go now..
If your into it i'll write more about this later..

[nebulae]

If your into it i'll write more about this later..

yes, absolutely...would love to hear more tricks like this...thanks

[Homebelly]

Okay,,
I'm at work now..

When i first got GR1 i tended to think of it as a collection of amps and FX.
Now my thinking has changed and i tend to think of it as one big Amp and FX box.
To me it isn't important if each of the models sounds like the original hardware it is modeled on, what matters is that each module has a sound and character that you can use to build up some very cool and full sounding Guitar tones.
For example..
The twin is classically thought of as being an amp with a lot of clean head room, where as the bass man is seen as being an amp with a very small amount of head room..
If you combine these two amps together and use the splitter you can build a great driven sound that still has very good definition.. If you add one of the modulators into the rig you can control the amount of signal each amp gets by how hard you pick,,,
You can then feed both of these amps into a single speaker cab model and then play with the mic setings to get all kinds of cool tones..

As for creating FX chains..
The sky is the limit.
In real life you have to start worrying about gain build up and feedback issues..
In GR you can do what ever the hell you like with out hardly any repercussions..
I tend to steer clear of putting lots of distortion models in series,, but this is still possible and you can build up some very cool Keven Shields inspired tones..

The down side of GR is that it is very easy to get lost in it and design some cool but totally unusable sounds.. however, these can often times end up becoming fertile ground for recording, hacking into pieces and feeding to sampler...

If you really want to go to town you can use the slitter and delays and a volume pedal to build up some very very cool Robin Guthry inspired evolving guitar textures,, this is where i am at with it right now...