One Day The Americans Decided To BBQ A City For No Reason

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landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:29 am

Whew, it's not that I disagree. There were 3 days between bombs, right? Perhaps we could have waited a bit longer - or continue the fire bombing campaign which was killing thousands upon thousands?

Or perhaps we could have just launched a mainland invasion? The lowest estimates for Japanese civilian deaths in the event of an invasion are in the million+ range.

Battle after battle in the South Pacific proved that the Japanese soldiers were prepared to die rather than surrender. Japanese civilians were hurling themselves off of cliffs for fuck's sake - because Japanese propaganda was rife with tales of how the GIs were going to enslave and torture them. This propaganda found it's largest audience with the Japanese mainland civilians.

The fact that the Japanese were well underway in the military training of civilians to fight to the death for their Emperor in the event of a US invasion is well documented.

Was there a message that the A-Bombs were meant to send to the Russians? Absolutely. Was that the reason that a 2nd bomb was dropped? No fucking way.

It's easy, so many years later, to forget how utterly tired people were of war. My god. The amount of GI losses in the South Pacific was phenomenal and horrifying. It's been said many time before, but Truman and Co. asked themselves: How in the world do we not use these weapons to put an end to this war, then look into the eyes of the families who will lose their sons and husbands?

Even after the 1st bomb, the Japanese leadership barely took notice. They just couldn't take a fucking hint. Then the RUSSIANS declared war on them AND we dropped the second bomb. They STILL didn't care. Arrogance at it's utter best and most devastating.

It was SIX days later when they finally gave up. Six. Fucking. Days.

They had no idea at the time that we didn't have more bombs. For all they knew, we had a few more. They quite simply didn't care. They were 150% concerned about how the Emperor would be treated.

Jesus. Maybe if we hadn't have dropped that 2nd bomb....then what? 6 more months of fighting? A year?

And even then, their surrender had far more to do with staving off a civil war that they knew would be coming if they didn't surrender.

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adventurepants_
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Post by adventurepants_ » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:35 am

Machinesworking wrote:
adventurepants_ wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:Wow, all this thread has done is convince me it's even more important to prevent this 18 year old kid I know from joining the army here. landrabies and b0unce sharing party photos......

My opinion is that the first bomb made sense, the second was done because the military wanted two "examples" of the power the A-bomb had. The second drop wasn't necessary IMO. They (the military) had a chance to test the bomb on two cities and they took it. I don't think it's possible to really justify it. Though I'm sure people will.....
this is a classic topic in most US history courses. The mainstream idea is that the US made demands they knew that the Japanese would never accept ie giving up the Emperor to be tried for war crimes. This then gave them the excuse to test the A bomb which was a show of power to the Russians hungrily expanding across Europe. Its accepted that the bombs saved about 1 million GI lives that would have been sacrificed taking every square inch of the Japanese homeland by conventional methods.

The great debate is wether the Japanese would have surrendered if given terms they werent philosophically opposed to , like giving up the Emperor. Then there would not have been any need for a million more US deaths, or the horrors of the A bomb. We will never know.
Again, it's not that they dropped the A-bomb but that they dropped two! I really don't think there was any need to drop two. To me it reeked of opportunity more than necessity.
1 A-bomb = ending the war sooner, scaring the russians etc.
2 A-bombs = testing new toys on civilian populations, because we can. Three days between them too.

Like I said I'm sure plenty of people will disagree, but I see it like that.
they dropped the second one because they didnt surrender after the first. They wouldnt have dropped it if Japan agreed to unconditional terms. Or so they said at the time. Im assuming the US thought that if the Japanese wouldnt surrender after 3 days they wouldnt surrender after a hundred, so needed a further incentive. its not as if there was any chance of a popular uprising in Japan against the Emperor, to discuss terms with the US outside of the military dictatorship.
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landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:38 am

adventurepants_ wrote:The great debate is wether the Japanese would have surrendered if given terms they werent philosophically opposed to , like giving up the Emperor. Then there would not have been any need for a million more US deaths, or the horrors of the A bomb. We will never know.

Pfft. Some debate. The Japanese were, quite simply, not in any position to dictate terms. None. Nada. Zip.

And, furthermore, the Allies were not in any way obligated to honor any wishes of Japan. They were Soundly and Roundly defeated. They themselves knew this at least 10 months prior to the end. It was their own pride, arrogance, and devotion to their beliefs that prevented them from doing the sensible thing and just fucking surrender.

They refused.

They paid the price.

Life's a bitch.



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siddhu
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Post by siddhu » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:40 am

adventurepants_ wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:Wow, all this thread has done is convince me it's even more important to prevent this 18 year old kid I know from joining the army here. landrabies and b0unce sharing party photos......

My opinion is that the first bomb made sense, the second was done because the military wanted two "examples" of the power the A-bomb had. The second drop wasn't necessary IMO. They (the military) had a chance to test the bomb on two cities and they took it. I don't think it's possible to really justify it. Though I'm sure people will.....
this is a classic topic in most US history courses. The mainstream idea is that the US made demands they knew that the Japanese would never accept ie giving up the Emperor to be tried for war crimes. This then gave them the excuse to test the A bomb which was a show of power to the Russians hungrily expanding across Europe. Its accepted that the bombs saved about 1 million GI lives that would have been sacrificed taking every square inch of the Japanese homeland by conventional methods.

The great debate is wether the Japanese would have surrendered if given terms they werent philosophically opposed to , like giving up the Emperor. Then there would not have been any need for a million more US deaths, or the horrors of the A bomb. We will never know.
It's actually well known among hardcore military history buffs that the second bomb drop was done for reasons other than the Japanese surrender.

Additionally to this day the Japanese still don't understand why the US bombed Nagasaki as they were ready to surrender after the 1st one.
Last edited by siddhu on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:41 am

silverlulu wrote:yeah ar YOUR not the first person to come under attack from tonedeft the grammar king, he fucked up when he came at me as well. irony is a bitch.

or has he would put it "irony is an bitch"
wtf are you talking about?

attack? right... you haven't seen an attack. so thenthitive. :P

the ar - I was surprised at your post, I even looked up the dates and it wasn't even feasible, so I posted. if you made a mistake, big fucking deal, if that's the worst thing you do this week it's a good week.
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landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:43 am

Actually, the Japanese should thank their lucky stars that the Chinese didn't develop the bomb first and had the time to get a dozen or so. The entire fucking mainland would have been a smoking ruin.

b0unce wouldn't have been able to post ANY of those pics because, um, there wouldn't have been anything but dust.

It's amazing, and you don't hear about it much, but there's still a lot of fucking anger on the part of Chinese, Filipinos, and Koreans towards the Japanese.

A lot of fucking anger.

Mostly because they pretty much still won't admit that they used their countries as toilet paper.

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landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:45 am

siddhu wrote: Additionally to this day the Japanese still don't understand why the US bombed Nagasaki as they were ready to surrender after the 1st one.


omfg.


So, so wrong.


Do you fucking homework.


Six days after the 2nd bomb.


Six days.


That's a fucking lifetime in Atomic years.


And even then, the vote was fucking close.


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adventurepants_
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Post by adventurepants_ » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:49 am

siddhu wrote:
adventurepants_ wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:Wow, all this thread has done is convince me it's even more important to prevent this 18 year old kid I know from joining the army here. landrabies and b0unce sharing party photos......

My opinion is that the first bomb made sense, the second was done because the military wanted two "examples" of the power the A-bomb had. The second drop wasn't necessary IMO. They (the military) had a chance to test the bomb on two cities and they took it. I don't think it's possible to really justify it. Though I'm sure people will.....
this is a classic topic in most US history courses. The mainstream idea is that the US made demands they knew that the Japanese would never accept ie giving up the Emperor to be tried for war crimes. This then gave them the excuse to test the A bomb which was a show of power to the Russians hungrily expanding across Europe. Its accepted that the bombs saved about 1 million GI lives that would have been sacrificed taking every square inch of the Japanese homeland by conventional methods.

The great debate is wether the Japanese would have surrendered if given terms they werent philosophically opposed to , like giving up the Emperor. Then there would not have been any need for a million more US deaths, or the horrors of the A bomb. We will never know.
It's actually well known among hardcore military history buffs that the second bomb drop was done for reasons other than the Japanese surrender.

Additionally to this day the Japanese still don't understand why the US bombed Nagasaki as they were ready to surrender after the 1st one.
hardcore military history buffs are among the scariest, and smelliest anoraks around. they also care little for things like academic rigour.
nathannn wrote:i will block everyone on this forum if i have to.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:57 am

adventurepants_ wrote:
siddhu wrote:
adventurepants_ wrote: this is a classic topic in most US history courses. The mainstream idea is that the US made demands they knew that the Japanese would never accept ie giving up the Emperor to be tried for war crimes. This then gave them the excuse to test the A bomb which was a show of power to the Russians hungrily expanding across Europe. Its accepted that the bombs saved about 1 million GI lives that would have been sacrificed taking every square inch of the Japanese homeland by conventional methods.

The great debate is wether the Japanese would have surrendered if given terms they werent philosophically opposed to , like giving up the Emperor. Then there would not have been any need for a million more US deaths, or the horrors of the A bomb. We will never know.
It's actually well known among hardcore military history buffs that the second bomb drop was done for reasons other than the Japanese surrender.

Additionally to this day the Japanese still don't understand why the US bombed Nagasaki as they were ready to surrender after the 1st one.
hardcore military history buffs are among the scariest, and smelliest anoraks around. they also care little for things like academic rigour.


And, regardless of nationality, they always wear those goofy British army commando sweaters with the patches on the shoulders:

Image

meh. Actually I have always thought those were kinda cool looking.


I betcha when b0unce sees one of those coming he pees his pants.


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dm_hawk
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Post by dm_hawk » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:15 am

beats me wrote:In 1982 a woman dropped a bomb on the Gap Band that was estimated to be similar in size to the Nagasaki bomb and funked up way more people than anything the US ever did during WW2. Did she need to drop it? No, but the world is now a better place because of it.
LOLOLOL
Image
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knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:16 am

The U.S. killed more japanese with conventional weapons and firebombing than the atomic bombs.

Fog of war. Your answer > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er2xCn3_QcQ

Image

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:38 am

knotkranky wrote:The U.S. killed more japanese with conventional weapons and firebombing than the atomic bombs.

Fog of war. Your answer > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er2xCn3_QcQ
Wow!

silverlulu
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Post by silverlulu » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:52 am

so can someone summarize what happened with the whole bombing japan thing in a small easy to digest paragraph cos i have mainly been talking shit with 3 or 4 people while you guys converse about grown up stuff... and post pics of dead gooks.

USA owns?

i've just taken quite a lot of ecstasy.
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rjbourc
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Post by rjbourc » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:56 am

landrvr1 wrote:Actually, the Japanese should thank their lucky stars that the Chinese didn't develop the bomb first and had the time to get a dozen or so. The entire fucking mainland would have been a smoking ruin.
Lucky, yeah, but not much of a threat, was it? The Chinese ended up about 20 years too late to the nuclear party to pull off that stunt.

adventurepants_
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Post by adventurepants_ » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:04 am

silverlulu wrote:so can someone summarize what happened with the whole bombing japan thing in a small easy to digest paragraph cos i have mainly been talking shit with 3 or 4 people while you guys converse about grown up stuff... and post pics of dead gooks.

USA owns?

i've just taken quite a lot of ecstasy.
well thanks for clearing that up. you're a racist ignorant prick, and not even a good troll.
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