Operator for free...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
rydan
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Operator for free...

Post by rydan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:07 am

Well, seems, if you update to Live7 now, you get operator for free. Well, sorry for being rude, but that's just bad.

First of all, the most loyal users, who updated early and lived with the bugs, get nothing. Thanks!

Then, what does this mean? Sell as many licenses as possible before releasing Live8? Operator free with Live8 anyway?

Sorry if I'm rude to blame ableton for having a "sale", I don't need operator at all, I have other synths, but this move actually seems a bit strange to me...
Live + M4L, MacBookPro & Ultralite mk3. Plugins from Softube, Soundtoys, Eventide, 2CAudio, Cytomic, AudioDamage, OhmForce, FabFilter, SonicCharge, Waves, MadronaLabs, NI and ExpertSleepers. Oh, and a bunch of hardware... =D

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SMonk
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Re: Operator for free...

Post by SMonk » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:17 am

rydan wrote: First of all, the most loyal users, who updated early and lived with the bugs, get nothing. Thanks!
Well, they did get to use Live for quite some time, didn't they? But I guess that's worth nothing.

rydan
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Post by rydan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:31 am

Of course it is. I personally don't care that much about operator, so I would have upgraded to live 7 as soon it was released even if I'd known about this.

However, I think the sale is a bit strange, especially since it's soon time for Live8 I guess...
Live + M4L, MacBookPro & Ultralite mk3. Plugins from Softube, Soundtoys, Eventide, 2CAudio, Cytomic, AudioDamage, OhmForce, FabFilter, SonicCharge, Waves, MadronaLabs, NI and ExpertSleepers. Oh, and a bunch of hardware... =D

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rydan
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Post by rydan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:33 am

Also, the people who updated and bought Operator. Well, I'm guessing they are pretty pissed at the moment...
Live + M4L, MacBookPro & Ultralite mk3. Plugins from Softube, Soundtoys, Eventide, 2CAudio, Cytomic, AudioDamage, OhmForce, FabFilter, SonicCharge, Waves, MadronaLabs, NI and ExpertSleepers. Oh, and a bunch of hardware... =D

http://www.pinknoise.se

andydes
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Post by andydes » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:36 am

I'm getting tired of hearing this.

Grow up, you bunch of whinging children. This is the real world, Ableton is a business and there is a world-wide recession on.

In tough times, fancy music software is pretty high on the list of things people can live without. I'm pretty sure sales of Live will be down and it's some time before the next release.

In real life, the employees need paying to cover rent, fed their children, pay their taxes etc. Perhaps, you’d prefer that Ableton made half their staff redundant? Not to mention all the costs of running the offices, warehouses, distribution. Without cash flow, Ableton will simply cease to exist.

Yeah, real fucking loyal customers.

rydan
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Post by rydan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:50 am

Well, if it's money they need, I would gladly pay 200 euros just to get (a well implemented) midi step input in live7. I'd take features added to the "core" app over plugins/instruments any day.
Live + M4L, MacBookPro & Ultralite mk3. Plugins from Softube, Soundtoys, Eventide, 2CAudio, Cytomic, AudioDamage, OhmForce, FabFilter, SonicCharge, Waves, MadronaLabs, NI and ExpertSleepers. Oh, and a bunch of hardware... =D

http://www.pinknoise.se

Freekster
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Post by Freekster » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:02 am

I bought both Operator and Sampler when those came out. Operator is pretty useless to me as it's too complicated to use. I was thinking to sell it cheap for someone, but now i don't have to bother :D

I think Ableton should include all instrument free with Live. It's way too expensive with all stuff bought in bundle.

When Apple dropped the Logic price 500e I was very pissed. I had put allmost 2000e for the software and it's updates and now it lost most of it's value. But that's life and business. Logic Studio gives by far the best bang for the buck in audio software. Nothing comes even close. And that's good thing for people just starting out and low on cash.
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andydes
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Post by andydes » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:11 am

rydan wrote:Well, if it's money they need, I would gladly pay 200 euros just to get (a well implemented) midi step input in live7. I'd take features added to the "core" app over plugins/instruments any day.
Would you? I wouldn't, but perhaps a handfull of other people may be with you.

There are several features I would pay 200 euros for. And they are probably different from everyone else's feature requests Many of which you won't want.

So we go back to the old feature request argument. And the release time of Live 8, what 6 months away? Still plenty of time for a business to go under.

In the meantime, Ableton are entiled to sell their own software however the hell they like to keep themselves afloat, or God forbid, in profit.

rydan
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Post by rydan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:30 am

andydes wrote:
rydan wrote:Well, if it's money they need, I would gladly pay 200 euros just to get (a well implemented) midi step input in live7. I'd take features added to the "core" app over plugins/instruments any day.
Would you? I wouldn't, but perhaps a handfull of other people may be with you.

There are several features I would pay 200 euros for. And they are probably different from everyone else's feature requests Many of which you won't want.
Yes. I have actually thought quite a bit about these kind of problems. Would be kind of cool with an "feature auctioning system". That is, the abes put a price on feature requests, and as soon as that amount of money has been collected by the community, the feature is implemented and released (to everyone, not just the ones paying for it). I think something like that could actually work. As I said, for me, step input would easily be worth 200 euros, and then I wouldn't care if everybody else got it for free.
Live + M4L, MacBookPro & Ultralite mk3. Plugins from Softube, Soundtoys, Eventide, 2CAudio, Cytomic, AudioDamage, OhmForce, FabFilter, SonicCharge, Waves, MadronaLabs, NI and ExpertSleepers. Oh, and a bunch of hardware... =D

http://www.pinknoise.se

Pasha
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Post by Pasha » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:47 am

I'm one of those who payed for Operator some years ago during an upgrade campaign (I got a 20 Euros rebate).
If the OP doesn't care about Operator why complain? I own it. I do not complain.
Ableton is living under pressure of their bigger competitors. Take Apple. They do not care a dime about fixing Logic with the same frequency Ableton fixes Live. They aim at hardware and make Logic a ridiculous price with a lot of content so you buy in their main business. How do you tackle that Mr. CEO? This is business. You need to offer something similar and bundle it so that people buy your product and get tied in. Let's Analyze Ableton. What they have to offer? They have Sampler and Operator (the AAS stuff is out of it - they pay a fee for the licenced engine). Operator is a good synth that complements Ableton offer. This offer IMHO does not mean that Live8 will offer Operator for free. This has already happened. Take the download suite. The sum of the parts was very high compared with the price I paid for the upgrade. They were already giving away Operator and Simpler at a fraction of the price. For the same reason the Sampler owner should complain? No. Probably Live8 will bring a price schema revolution. Again. No one can change the common laws of business. If you want to stay in the market you have to play by the rules.
Be prepared to changes. Things cannot stay the same. I prefer Ableton change the price schema rather than having no Ableton at all. Moreover I think that Ableton cannot afford having Live 6,Live 7, Live 8 focused at the same time, They simply do not have enough people and these times they cannot hire.
I'm sorry for the harsh tone but this happens when I see comment from people apparently living outside this world. Remember that Ableton sells DAW Software to a tiny fraction of the whole population and Musicians, especially semi-pro and amateurs are not exactly the richest ones.

- Best
- Pasha
Apple iMac 2013 / Macbook Late 2012
Live 10 Suite,Zebra ,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
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rydan
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Post by rydan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:53 am

Pasha wrote: I'm sorry for the harsh tone but this happens when I see comment from people apparently living outside this world.
Well, I'm a professional software developer myself, working for a small company, and well, in my opinion, especially when competition is fierce, annoying your main user base is exactly what you don't want to do to gain a few quids extra...
Live + M4L, MacBookPro & Ultralite mk3. Plugins from Softube, Soundtoys, Eventide, 2CAudio, Cytomic, AudioDamage, OhmForce, FabFilter, SonicCharge, Waves, MadronaLabs, NI and ExpertSleepers. Oh, and a bunch of hardware... =D

http://www.pinknoise.se

Bionecteur
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Post by Bionecteur » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:04 am

andydes wrote:I'm getting tired of hearing this.

Grow up, you bunch of whinging children. This is the real world, Ableton is a business and there is a world-wide recession on.

In tough times, fancy music software is pretty high on the list of things people can live without. I'm pretty sure sales of Live will be down and it's some time before the next release.

In real life, the employees need paying to cover rent, fed their children, pay their taxes etc. Perhaps, you’d prefer that Ableton made half their staff redundant? Not to mention all the costs of running the offices, warehouses, distribution. Without cash flow, Ableton will simply cease to exist.

Thanks

Yeah, real fucking loyal customers.

Wroong line..

Thank you for this answer...this is so true
ritsch, ratsch, klick

Pasha
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Post by Pasha » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:49 am

rydan wrote:
Pasha wrote: I'm sorry for the harsh tone but this happens when I see comment from people apparently living outside this world.
Well, I'm a professional software developer myself, working for a small company, and well, in my opinion, especially when competition is fierce, annoying your main user base is exactly what you don't want to do to gain a few quids extra...
Good. Then you should know that you cannot milk the customer base forever. You need to expand your customer base and Ableton is exactly what is trying to do. I agree with your point but to piss off your customer base you have to act very weird. Ableton Support is out of the ordinary, Operator is still priced 129 Euros. I paid 109 Euros when bundling my upgrade. Current prices can be found here: http://www.ableton.com/pricing

If we look at the offer:

Buy or upgrade to Ableton Live 7 between September 1, 2008 and October 30, 2008 and get Operator for free. This offer is valid for the following products:

* Ableton Live 7
* Ableton Live 7 LE
* Upgrades from Live LE to Ableton Live 7
* Upgrades from Live Lite to Ableton Live 7

(Offer not valid for educational products)


They are simply offering for a limited time frame Operator for free for all newcomers or Upgraders.

Let's Take a step back and try to see things from a different perspective.
During Nov 2006 a Black Macbook with 2GB RAM cost you 1699 Euros, now the same model has been pimped on and it cost you 1399 Euro. Comparably the entry level Mac is now as low as 999 Euros and has been upgraded from previous version. The RAM price,180 Euros for upgrade to 2GB is now 90 Euros. What happened was that RAM prices went down and CPU/HDD prices too because they were adopted by the Market. Apple competitors already offered 2GB Laptops so Apple had to re think the strategy. However, Apple RAM prices are a steal as all well informed ones know.
Let's make a parallel.
VSTi that are part of the DAWs are given away with the main product (Logic, Cubase, Nuendo, Fruity Loops) and Ableton stubbornly continues to charge for something you can use only with Live like Apple with Logic, the only difference is that Live runs on Windows and so you can use it everywhere. A strategy change is needed. Let's offer Operator bundled for free for newcomers / upgraders in the next couple of months, because probably this year we won't have a Live 8 massive upgrade campaign and we need to close books in the black. I do not see anything evil in that. I do not complain for the Apple Macbook difference and I do not complain for Operator given for free now. Nothing stays the same. Let's make a poll about who's feeling pissed off by this.

- Best
- Pasha
Apple iMac 2013 / Macbook Late 2012
Live 10 Suite,Zebra ,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

andydes
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Post by andydes » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:43 am

I’d just like to point out my original reply wasn’t really aimed especially at Rydan, but about many of the people complainting about Ableton’s pricing.

Strangely they often contradict each other. Some people are screaming for the price of instruments to be dropped (because logic is such great value, despite the fact no one here really likes using it), but as soon as the suite was released, people started complaining that they weren’t given enough discount.

So, a couple of questions:
Do any of you go into shops in the January sales and complain that the LCD TV you bought 6 months ago is now half price, and demand a refund. After all, a TV has a substantial manufacture cost, so it’s even more ridiculous that it should be sold on the cheap.

Or do you go into a DKNY shop and say “I’d prefer your jeans to the ones in Gap, but I get more for my money in Gap. I demand you drop your prices.” ?

Of course not, either would be stupid. Maybe next time I go to my favourite bar, I should go on about how I’m a loyal customer who have helped keep them in business all these years and demand discounts. Or would that seem a little rude? (And my contribution to certain bars near me is probably greater than what any of you have spent on Ableton).

Pasha
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Post by Pasha » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:38 pm

andydes wrote:I’d just like to point out my original reply wasn’t really aimed especially at Rydan, but about many of the people complainting about Ableton’s pricing.

Strangely they often contradict each other. Some people are screaming for the price of instruments to be dropped (because logic is such great value, despite the fact no one here really likes using it), but as soon as the suite was released, people started complaining that they weren’t given enough discount.

So, a couple of questions:
Do any of you go into shops in the January sales and complain that the LCD TV you bought 6 months ago is now half price, and demand a refund. After all, a TV has a substantial manufacture cost, so it’s even more ridiculous that it should be sold on the cheap.

Or do you go into a DKNY shop and say “I’d prefer your jeans to the ones in Gap, but I get more for my money in Gap. I demand you drop your prices.” ?

Of course not, either would be stupid. Maybe next time I go to my favourite bar, I should go on about how I’m a loyal customer who have helped keep them in business all these years and demand discounts. Or would that seem a little rude? (And my contribution to certain bars near me is probably greater than what any of you have spent on Ableton).
Me too. Even if I had an exchange of posts with Rydan. Simply I do not get why people like you stated have the complain filter always off... :roll:
Apple iMac 2013 / Macbook Late 2012
Live 10 Suite,Zebra ,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

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