On Palins speech....

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Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:27 am

forge wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
forge wrote: I know Bush is getting accolades for being the worst president ever, but I think Nixon still gives him a run for his money.
Any reasons you believe this? Let's face it, Watergate isn't the first, or last time that sort of thing has gone down.
I guess because I read a fair bit of Hunter S. Thompson's accounts of him, which I guess is not necessarily exactly a reliable source, not saying Bush doesnt have an enemies list that we don't know about, but at least he's not conscripting kids into his despicable war
Uh? Nixon ended VietNam. You have to give it to the republicans on that one. The president before him LBJ got in on an 'ending the war' ticket, and did not. Nixon was a bastard, and his administration started the ties with China, but GWB is far worse IMO. Neocons make regular republicans look pretty cool in comparison.

Hence my lack of excitement about Obamas promise to pull out, on some long schedule. At least Biden his VP actually had a plan for Iraq as far as what to do about the Sunni, Shiite conflicts and other ethnic rivalries there. Hopefully some of that emerges in Obamas policies if he gets elected.....Hunter S. Thompson rules BTW, too bad he killed himself.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:34 am

Tone Deft wrote:dunno what to say, all your points are about you. if I were to respond it'd be more of the same, couldn't be good.
Right, like I did anything more that respond to you being an pompous prick? Make it personal, then act like the other person is getting all heated, clever in a neocon sort of way. :P

MartinOM28V
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Post by MartinOM28V » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:36 am

ethios4 wrote:
forge wrote:It is the state of the people that has allowed these governments to flourish.
I totally agree. Obama winning would probably encourage people to be more active....McCain winning would probably further cement apathy....I def want Obama to win for that reason.

I'm not sure how to help change the state of the people. I went out to a football game last weekend to help get petitions signed to save our train station. It was really freaking hard and depressing trying to get those people interested. Most people just didn't want to hear it... even young people.

Unfortunately, capitalism, much as I love it, is founded on selfishness, and appeal to the lowest common denominator, when you get down to it. Maybe I'm wrong...more and more it just seems like everything is geared towards advertising, which is dumbed down, hyper-sexualized, self-absorbed, over-stimulated bullshit culture. I don't know how to fight that.

Bingo. Only rising above it will change it. That's what Obama represents to me--the hope of rising above this culture that is dumbing us down, increasing the suffering of the planet and making us think Palin is a viable VP candidate just because she's hot.
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forge
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Post by forge » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:37 am

Machinesworking wrote:
forge wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: Any reasons you believe this? Let's face it, Watergate isn't the first, or last time that sort of thing has gone down.
I guess because I read a fair bit of Hunter S. Thompson's accounts of him, which I guess is not necessarily exactly a reliable source, not saying Bush doesnt have an enemies list that we don't know about, but at least he's not conscripting kids into his despicable war
Uh? Nixon ended VietNam. You have to give it to the republicans on that one. The president before him LBJ got in on an 'ending the war' ticket, and did not. Nixon was a bastard, and his administration started the ties with China, but GWB is far worse IMO. Neocons make regular republicans look pretty cool in comparison.

Hence my lack of excitement about Obamas promise to pull out, on some long schedule. At least Biden his VP actually had a plan for Iraq as far as what to do about the Sunni, Shiite conflicts and other ethnic rivalries there. Hopefully some of that emerges in Obamas policies if he gets elected.....Hunter S. Thompson rules BTW, too bad he killed himself.
well I'm not going to get too deep here because I'm certainly no expert - he kept the draft going though didn't he?

I dunno... My point was none of your little brothers are being forced to go or sent to jail for objecting

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:22 am

forge wrote: well I'm not going to get too deep here because I'm certainly no expert - he kept the draft going though didn't he?

I dunno... My point was none of your little brothers are being forced to go or sent to jail for objecting
True, but it's not like it wasn't in place before he came along, and I don't recall hearing that he said he would end the draft if elected, so it's hard to say he's any worse than any president before him that way. GWB did more damage to private rights and foreign affairs than Nixon, that's all I was saying, though it's close, the FBI was rampant and really going at any political activists back then, but again, we have 'freedom fences' now.....?????? Great, so they cage demonstrators away from any real provocateur action and it's legal now???

deva
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Post by deva » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:30 am

Machinesworking wrote:
forge wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: Any reasons you believe this? Let's face it, Watergate isn't the first, or last time that sort of thing has gone down.
I guess because I read a fair bit of Hunter S. Thompson's accounts of him, which I guess is not necessarily exactly a reliable source, not saying Bush doesnt have an enemies list that we don't know about, but at least he's not conscripting kids into his despicable war
Uh? Nixon ended VietNam. You have to give it to the republicans on that one. The president before him LBJ got in on an 'ending the war' ticket, and did not. Nixon was a bastard, and his administration started the ties with China, but GWB is far worse IMO. Neocons make regular republicans look pretty cool in comparison.
If I recall correctly, Nixon also gave us the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act. Some landmark legislation there.

I also remember reading some account of Nixon sneaking out of the White House at night and with no security and talked to some anti-war protesters. Try to imagine Bush ever even thinking about doing something like that.

Nixon was far far better than Bush.

deva
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Post by deva » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:36 am

forge wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
forge wrote: I guess because I read a fair bit of Hunter S. Thompson's accounts of him, which I guess is not necessarily exactly a reliable source, not saying Bush doesnt have an enemies list that we don't know about, but at least he's not conscripting kids into his despicable war
Uh? Nixon ended VietNam. You have to give it to the republicans on that one. The president before him LBJ got in on an 'ending the war' ticket, and did not. Nixon was a bastard, and his administration started the ties with China, but GWB is far worse IMO. Neocons make regular republicans look pretty cool in comparison.

Hence my lack of excitement about Obamas promise to pull out, on some long schedule. At least Biden his VP actually had a plan for Iraq as far as what to do about the Sunni, Shiite conflicts and other ethnic rivalries there. Hopefully some of that emerges in Obamas policies if he gets elected.....Hunter S. Thompson rules BTW, too bad he killed himself.
well I'm not going to get too deep here because I'm certainly no expert - he kept the draft going though didn't he?

I dunno... My point was none of your little brothers are being forced to go or sent to jail for objecting
The only reason Bush has not enacted a draft is because he knows he could not get it passed...

Actually, I think it will take a democrat to get the draft pushed through again... just like it took a democrat (clinton) to gut welfare and push nafta through. I'll give you even odds that Obama tries to bring back a draft under the guise of national service, working together, national unity and that sort of crap...

forge
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Post by forge » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:41 am

deva wrote:
forge wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: Uh? Nixon ended VietNam. You have to give it to the republicans on that one. The president before him LBJ got in on an 'ending the war' ticket, and did not. Nixon was a bastard, and his administration started the ties with China, but GWB is far worse IMO. Neocons make regular republicans look pretty cool in comparison.

Hence my lack of excitement about Obamas promise to pull out, on some long schedule. At least Biden his VP actually had a plan for Iraq as far as what to do about the Sunni, Shiite conflicts and other ethnic rivalries there. Hopefully some of that emerges in Obamas policies if he gets elected.....Hunter S. Thompson rules BTW, too bad he killed himself.
well I'm not going to get too deep here because I'm certainly no expert - he kept the draft going though didn't he?

I dunno... My point was none of your little brothers are being forced to go or sent to jail for objecting
The only reason Bush has not enacted a draft is because he knows he could not get it passed...

Actually, I think it will take a democrat to get the draft pushed through again... just like it took a democrat (clinton) to gut welfare and push nafta through. I'll give you even odds that Obama tries to bring back a draft under the guise of national service, working together, national unity and that sort of crap...
ok...well I probably shouldn't comment on stuff I don't really know about - HST's books were funny and very scathing, he loathed nixon like he was the devil - if you haven't read it, fear and loathing on the campaign trail is not a bad read, if you can be bothered I guess, I read it when I had 2 90 minute commutes each day to fill

deva
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Post by deva » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:06 am

mikemc wrote:
deva wrote:The police targeted journalists on the streets. The Democracy Now team was violently arrested, bloodied, and a couple of them are facing felony charges for doing nothing but journalism. Houses where independent videographers were staying were raided prior to the convention and all their computers and cameras were seized. No crime except being independent.
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Journalists aren't all glorious truthseekers, we all know that with the right camera angles it's easy to make a gathering of a dozen rabid people seem like they represent a maddened howling throng. Any news has to be taken with at least a grain of salt. Having said that...
Completely irrelevant. I have been a reporter on the streets for 6 years. Everyone has a bias. So what? The law is the law. THe 4th Amendment guards against illegal search and seizure. The 1st Amendment guarantees the right to assemble, freedom of speech and the press.

Those rights are now routinely violated. When those rights no longer mean anything, then we live in a fascist country. We teeter on the edge...

mikemc wrote:While I think it is not out of the realm of possibility that 'provocateurs' might be able to obtain press credentials in order to somehow better stir up protests, clearly at least one of the people who were arrested here is a long-time, legit, US-based reporter, and as such thoroughly protected by the Constitution.
It is easy to obtain Press Credentials. Depending upon the state you live in, printing them yourself gives them as much weight as those from CBS (under the law).

EVERY SINGLE PERSON is thoroughly protected by the Constitution. There is a legal concept called innocent until proven guilty and another thing called evidence. You cannot just drag people off the street because you claim they might do something. Evidence is necessary... Probable Cause

Well, this is no longer so actually... The renewal of the Patriot Act created a Federal Police Force (Gestapo) and further delineated the powers of the Secret Service and Federal Police to designate certain events as 'special' (usually when the prez or other top 'elected officials' are attending an event) and then they can detain people at their discretion. This of course is in direct violation of the Constitution.

Rights are only rights when they are defended. Historically it is much easier to keep a right than to regain it after it has been lost. We are already a ways down that slippery slope.

deva
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Post by deva » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:15 am

ethios4 wrote:
deva wrote:A whole bunch of people just had their rights violated at the RNC. People are facing felony charges after being arrested BEFORE the convention, and charged with things that never happened and never would have happened. A friend of mine had her arm broken by by the police because they did not like that she was videotaping. Did she do one thing illegal? no!

The police targeted journalists on the streets. The Democracy Now team was violently arrested, bloodied, and a couple of them are facing felony charges for doing nothing but journalism. Houses where independent videographers were staying were raided prior to the convention and all their computers and cameras were seized. No crime except being independent.

That is fascism right there. And not one of the major candidates is saying a damn thing about it.
Exactly. That's a big part of why I don't get excited about Obama. Sure, he could just be playing it "safe" for the election, but if he gets in, do you really think he's going to do anything about it? No way, is what I say. He's just the good cop in this routine, and everyone will think he's great when the economy goes into "boom" mode again, meanwhile the foundation of complacency and faulty economics is laid for the next swing to the right. We've just been through some of the most disastrous years in our country's history, and the next guy isn't going to take steps to reverse the decline in Constitutional rights?!? If that's the case, Obama doesn't deserve the presidency any more than McCain, imo. [/cynic]
I agree with you. Ron Paul was the only candidate in the primaries talking about the Constitution and the loss of our rights and the threat of fascism in this country. He stated without prevarication he would remove the Patriot Act and rebuild the Bill of Rights and our Constitutional freedoms. Obama is silent on the matter!

There is nothing more fundamental to a free society than those rights.

The only point I would challenge is that I do not believe there will be another boom anytime soon. The US is essentially bankrupt and is failing. No empire lasts long when it becomes a debtor and not a creditor. The US debt just effectively doubled with the government takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. By far the biggest financial failure in US history.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:26 am

deva wrote: If I recall correctly, Nixon also gave us the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act. Some landmark legislation there.

I also remember reading some account of Nixon sneaking out of the White House at night and with no security and talked to some anti-war protesters. Try to imagine Bush ever even thinking about doing something like that.

Nixon was far far better than Bush.
Wow? I thought talks with the protesters was a story? but here.
http://cgi.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/ana ... e/9605/20/

He did have a few secret service men with him though.

funknotik
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Post by funknotik » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:40 am

nbr0118 wrote:
funknotik wrote:
nbr0118 wrote: ...please save us the suspense and leave now. :roll: It's obvious that most people on this forum have never lead anything in their life, nor would they respect anyone in a leadership role if he/she did not agree with their world view.

I hear these comments...and I hear people with absolutely no clue about the people they disagree with....it's like hearing a bunch of teen kids pretending they understand how the world works...according to their vast life experiences.

I would at least have more respect for these forums if they would at least take disagreements with a little more respect. It is funny...you guys are all about being open-minded....you can't even have civilized discussions because you're so pissed off at the world.

Here is a piece of advice: The world is not some giant conspiracy..where people with money and power are out to get you. Generally people are genuine and honest...even if they are wrong to think the way they do. If they are wrong...do something about it. Take McCain's advice...work your way into a position where you can actually make a difference in the world.

I'll fill you in on something. If you accept that challenge, you'll be a happier person....and ironically you will understand your enemies better...and will better understand how to deal with them. Basically, what I am saying is...GROW UP!!

What happy crappy, fisherprice, television sitcom, my little pony dimension are you living in? Take Mccains advice? Did you watch the fucking speech? He said "I know about the world, I know about war," what kind of a meaningless statement is that? You have to be more retarded and infantile than Palins youngest son to think that there is anything relevant I can extract from your response. We live in a polyarchy and we have a two party system, that sucks and I should be angry about it. Thats not even the least of our problems, and your wondering why people are angry? Everyone should be angry that the constitution is violated on a daily basis, that their is an unjustified war going on, that education and health care are not freely available as they are in the rest of the "civilized" world. Conformity is not a cure for any of these problems and not being in a position of leadership is irrelevant to my arguement. The anouncement of Palins' candidacy for Vice president was exactly what I said it was a JOKE suitable for a Saturaday anight live skit. It looked more like an evangelical revival than a political meeting.

This is not conspiracy either my friend this is what we call in technical literature... "REALITY." This also happens to be well documented in any political science journal worth reading. Read the American journal of political science, or research "Manufacturing Consent, learn about the propaganda model created by Edward S. Herman. Don't just take a spoonful of shit and eat it because it's patriotic. Learn about your government, read about the governments of other nations.

Did you know Bolivia has a more "DEMOCRACTIC" government than we do, they held a multi party election in 2005. This should be an example to people who are satisfied with America's propaganda model and how it filters any dissidence through major media outlets. Here is an excerpt I believe from Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing consent."

"Labor newspapers and other grassroots media are generally shut down. But dominant radio and TV licenses have literally been handed over to corporate titans, and "advertiser strikes" have made independent newspapers more costly to the reader than their corporate competitors. The result is most global media is consolidated in the hands of a few large corporations, an interlocking cartel representing huge armsmakers,like General Electric (NBC), Westinghouse (CBS), and labor abusers- like Disney (ABC). As with most hierarchically-organized businesses, editors and reporters quickly learn what will and won’t please the people in charge."

To refute one of the stupidest things you said about disgruntled teenagers. Access to information is greater now than it has ever been, so the possibility for a teenager to "understand how the world works" atleast politically is very real. Do you really find it impossible for someone under the age of 20 to read an article online and decide to learn more about the subject? Is the political process so alien to you that the idea of someone young having greater knowledge than you is inconvievable? Also please enlighten us since we the meek and mild proletarians have never been in a glorious and powerful "leadership position," like you have. What exactly are you the leader of, and who the fuck would follow you? :D :D :lol: :lol:
Wow..well I'll keep it simple for you. How about a family for starters. I don't have to go any further than that...because any father or mother or teacher or leader of any kind could read diagnose you just by your language and approach to confrontation. Being a leader is not about holding political power or controlling the media or whatever, it is the way you approach those who disagree with you on a day to day basic (every day life events and circumstances)....having a servant's heart...because that is what ultimately makes a difference....ultimately what convinces others to follow you...it's just life.

I get it...I understand everything you have said...and believe it or not...I have heard it all before. You are completely missing the point. I can see you are passionate about what you believe, and have no problem applauding you for your passion...but I can tell you right now that if you expect to convince others of your beliefs with your approach...then you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

That is honestly why I love my country..because enough good people understand that basic principle.

I don't expect to convince anyone with my approach, I expect the EVIDENCE to convince people, unless they are being intellectually dishonest. My "approach" is irrelevant, what is relevant is the things I told you to read about. Simply saying "I've heard it all before," is not sufficient until you have demonstrated an understanding of the subject, which you have not. Your generalizations about age having anything to do with understanding geo politics or political science in general is ridiculous. As is your assumption that I fit into that category.

If I follow your line of reasoning you are essentially saying that because you are a father in a mild leadership role, you are more capable of understanding John Mccains' omnipotent and powerful mind. And me being a lamen and the paragon of ignorance with "no clue about the people I disagree with," can never hope to understand such a power. Actually it wasn't just me your where referring too, you said "It's obvious that most people on this forum have never lead anything in their life." So we are all 16 with emo haircuts and silver spoons in our mouths and until we have a child we will be incapable of understanding John Mccains' power? We don't know anything about John Mccain, because only someone with a "leadership role" can learn anything about him. Genius!!!
That is honestly why I love my country..because enough good people understand that basic principle.
How patriotic of you! We should call the blue angels and have them fliy over your head on CBS as you make that statement. :roll:
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funknotik
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Post by funknotik » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:51 am

Machinesworking wrote:
forge wrote: I know Bush is getting accolades for being the worst president ever, but I think Nixon still gives him a run for his money.
Any reasons you believe this? Let's face it, Watergate isn't the first, or last time that sort of thing has gone down.
forge wrote:actually i think it's even simpler than that - we've just got it too easy
Great point. We (USA and the west) don't care about how we treat the rest of the world as long as our own backyard is OK.

Look at how consistently people get annoyed at anyone who brings up the simple fact that money decides 90% of the wests decisions on foreign policy. You get basically attacked over it. People willfully ignore it, it's too painful to admit that your country is involved in the same sort of colonial BS people have pulled for years, but it's most of the time handled through economic deals rather than war.

Once that changes, then maybe we'll see a real change in the world.
Indeed, aside from economic deals you forgot to mention "gods plan" to build a pipeline in Alaska. Sarah Palin will let you know about that, she had a three way with Jesus and god the other day and he's sure he wants the pipeline. Uh three way phone conversation that is... :twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS_VduCW ... re=related

"Gods will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built." -Sarah Palin
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funknotik
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Post by funknotik » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:55 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VtF7Ypr1hY

More about "Gods plan" for ALaska....and THE WORLD!!!
Two technics 1210 turntables, alot of guitars, 2gig Sony vgz fz290, 2gig frankenstein pc, mbox, ableton, flstudio, recycle, the infinity gauntlet, and alot of spare time..

forge
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Post by forge » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:34 am

Machinesworking wrote: Look at how consistently people get annoyed at anyone who brings up the simple fact that money decides 90% of the wests decisions on foreign policy. You get basically attacked over it. People willfully ignore it, it's too painful to admit that your country is involved in the same sort of colonial BS people have pulled for years, but it's most of the time handled through economic deals rather than war.

Once that changes, then maybe we'll see a real change in the world.
this is why it's been so interesting to watch the way the Chinese have risen to prominence - despite being officially "communist" they are probably the most savvy businessmen around - they are quietly doing business with probably every country on the planet in some form or another, while the US tries to do it with Bullying, China just gets on with it, quietly manufacturing for and and selling to the world

every single item in your house probably has at least some component that is Chinese made - we completely depend on them to the extent that most western factories are now shut

and they also own a staggering portion of the USA's debt!

they didn't need to do any of that through military conquest

I guess it's just a reality of the greedy, lazy, self interested capitalist way that a bit of bullying and conquest is required to make it work, because someone usually has to lose out

and the scariest thing about these Neo-cons is they still think the US is number 1 and king of the world while China and India each have a middle class bigger than the entire US population

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