new macbooks dont have firewire? alienating musicians.. wtf.

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
stonee
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Post by stonee » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:27 pm

ground_control wrote:
rikhyray wrote:
stonee wrote: final cut pro is an industry standard, and mac only. so now, mobile editing will be out for me, without buying a pc.
No, it is not.,never been. It is just stilly Apple marketing and propaganda. FCP is really nice and developed over the years but the real industry standard was and is Avid.
You might be surprised these days how much work comes through my facility that was done on FCP. Amateurs are a huge part of the "industry" now, whether they are now fully professional or still really amateurs, and they use what they know. And that is Final Cut.

Certainly Avid is an industry standard, and has been for much longer, but it's far from the only one anymore.

J

ps I'm not saying this is a good thing; FCP can be a royal pain in the ass to integrate into a professional postproduction workflow. ;)
they both have they're strenghts and weaknesses. avid's file managment is better, but the studio that comes with final cut is amazing, and its getting more and more versitile.

it all still means dick if you rely on an external hd and your deck is fw 400 tho...

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:04 pm

ava wrote:how about using a usb2 to firewire adaptor?
Those aren't "adaptors". They're basically a Firewire bus attached by USB2. That's most likely quite a bit worse than using a USB interface...

ze2be
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Post by ze2be » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:54 am

Angstrom wrote:
ze2be wrote:
Cant you just get an express card with firewire ports?

Seriously dont get the problem here. FW800 to FW400 cable for the pro, and a FW express card for the macbook.
yes, the problem is ... they took away the firewire and the way to ADD firewire, that's why it's so boneheaded.

I was in the market for a macbook to replace my Asus, but I would have no way to run my fireface OR my Echo Indigo, so I think I'll stay with the Asus for a while longer. A music computer with no music coming out of it - that ain't much fun!
8O -thats fucked!

Damn, I was thinking of going back to mac next year some time...new macbook looking afordable etc.. Oh well, im ok with xp on the live and studio pcs, cause I never connect them to the web anyway.


Ill wait.

leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:32 am

Apple do stuff like this quite regularly, just drop I/Os, interfaces and components with no prior warning, although this was more common around the period of OS8 and OS9 than OSX.

And in 99.9% of cases are too arrogant to admit they are wrong and change it.
Steve Jobs is so far up his own behind, there's no way he will ever see the light and he's always been an egomaniac, so you will never hear a 'sorry' or 'I was wrong' from him. Him and Bill Gates are both as bad as each other and have more in common than either care to admit.
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noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:06 am

leedsquietman wrote:Apple do stuff like this quite regularly, just drop I/Os, interfaces and components with no prior warning, although this was more common around the period of OS8 and OS9 than OSX.
They've done it once, and only with the original iMac which didn't have SCSI nor a replacement for it (only USB1 - although HDs did come for it later, it wasn't much fun). In all other cases, alternatives have been available.

The original iMac lacked serial ports for Mac printers, but most Mac serial printers could be bridged with a LocalTalk -> Ethernet box with no loss of functionality. ADB devices, similarly, could be attached via USB with no loss of speed, reliability or features, and besides, the iMacs came with a USB keyboard and mouse, so the only people who really needed to buy such an adaptor were people with tablets (or the ones with enough taste to know a great keyboard when they see it - I still use my Extended II).

The later removal of the external SCSI port from a computer with three PCI slots was most certainly not the same as removing the Firewire from a laptop with no expansion card slot. SCSI cards were cheap and easily available and quite often faster than what had been in-built on the previous generations. On the G3 and G4 towers, it was also possible to remove the modem and get a true LocalTalk-compatible serial port for printers and MIDI interfaces, or you could get a USB adaptor, or a PCI card, again, no loss of functionality. That's quite simply not the case with the removal of Firewire from the McBooks. From an expandability standpoint, it is in a much, much poorer state than its immediate predecessor. With the possible exception of the SCSI-less original iMac, that has never been the case for a Mac before.

Pasha
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Post by Pasha » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:55 am

Look here:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08 ... ewire.html

I can't believe it.

- Best
- Pasha
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fzero
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Post by fzero » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:16 pm

I could live with the lack of Firewire if I had more USB ports to boot. Before you say "buy a USB hub, n00b!', let me say that hubs don't work when you're using external audio interfaces. They introduce huge latency problems, which makes them impossible to use. Hard disks also don't work too well. I've had random disconnection issues with all external enclosures I've tried.

I currently have a white MacBook, which comes with two USBs and one firewire port. I've just bought an external firewire enclosure so I can free one of my usb ports in order to leave my soundcard plugged along with a HD plus a USB hub with two MIDI controllers and a mouse.

The fun part is that I also have an old Toshiba Pentium M 1.5 notebook with 3 USB ports. As you may have already guessed, I WOULDN'T have to buy the firewire enclosure with my old laptop.

Here we have a supposedly higher-end hardware which introduces connection problems that I wouldn’t have with an older, low-end hardware released three years ago.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:48 pm

fzero wrote:I could live with the lack of Firewire if I had more USB ports to boot. Before you say "buy a USB hub, n00b!', let me say that hubs don't work when you're using external audio interfaces. They introduce huge latency problems, which makes them impossible to use. Hard disks also don't work too well. I've had random disconnection issues with all external enclosures I've tried.
Most computers with more than two USB ports just have internal hubs.

nz
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Post by nz » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:47 pm

This really fucks up alot of stuff in the digital audio world. I understand if we were supposed to be migrating over to some new faster technology (like the original iMacs did away with SCSI), but this is just marketing bullshit. Think about it...all of the audio interfaces are FW400 right now.

I said I would never buy a Macbook Air because of this very thing and it was accepted with me because a MBA is a total consumer product, but this...I am speechless.

There is no way I will buy one of these machines...
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optimistic
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Post by optimistic » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:46 am

onslaught wrote:Agreed. I'm sure the Apple engineers are clever enough to fit it in that small area.
Either way, if there is space or not, it should be re-designed to accommodate a Firewire bus/port.
Exactly. I'm an engineer, this is what we get paid for. Here's a technical problem, now find a way to make it happen. I'd be very surprised if a space-related issue would be cause for them to drop FW altogether.

I don't think this a technical issue, it feels very much like a marketing or strategic decision. They must have their reasons...I guess the customer will pass judgment when they need a new machine and make their choice at the shop counter.

Peter Package
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Post by Peter Package » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:48 am

Lost in the FW outrage is that it is also ugly as shit, only in glossy and looks more like a Sony than an Apple

Job well done, Jobs!

Crash
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Post by Crash » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:52 am

noisetonepause wrote:Most computers with more than two USB ports just have internal hubs.
But only in pairs of three or four. If your desktop PC comes with 8 USB ports then it's very likely that it has at least two, maybe even four dedicated USB busses.

Fledz
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Post by Fledz » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:19 am

fzero wrote:I could live with the lack of Firewire if I had more USB ports to boot. Before you say "buy a USB hub, n00b!', let me say that hubs don't work when you're using external audio interfaces. They introduce huge latency problems, which makes them impossible to use. Hard disks also don't work too well. I've had random disconnection issues with all external enclosures I've tried.
Well not really. My Dell XPS has 6 USB2.0 but luckily I also have a FW400. Without the firewire, how would I run my Audio Interface? A USB AI just isn't good enough.

Same thing should apply to the Macs. At least 1 FW port should be mandatory on modern computers, especially since they are so damn useful.

fzero
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Post by fzero » Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:37 pm

noisetonepause wrote:
fzero wrote:I could live with the lack of Firewire if I had more USB ports to boot. Before you say "buy a USB hub, n00b!', let me say that hubs don't work when you're using external audio interfaces. They introduce huge latency problems, which makes them impossible to use. Hard disks also don't work too well. I've had random disconnection issues with all external enclosures I've tried.
Most computers with more than two USB ports just have internal hubs.
Not really. Try it with an external hub and you'll see the difference. A **HUGE** difference.

Pasha
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Post by Pasha » Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:42 pm

Would you welcome the adoption of a 4-Pin FW400 in the next MacBook revision?
Apple iMac 2013 / Macbook Late 2012
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