[5529] Unworkable Monitoring/Re Delay in 8.0.2 Vs 7.0.1.4

[Phaedrum]

I just sent the email below to Ableton. I have been an avid Live user since version 1.0, but this is the first version of Live that I find essentially useless for live audio recording. I believe this problem--new to Live 8--is serious enough despite mention here and there to merit a topic of its own. I do not understand how this problem made it through beta testing, let alone the latest update. Please, Ableton--do not force me to go back to DP; I'd rather stop making music! Surely this can be fixed, but Ableton's failure to do so in 8.0.2--despite their assurances to me--give me pause.

"Dear Ableton:

I have been unable to record useful audio through my MOTU 1224 and 2408 mk 3 into my 8-Core Mac Pro (4 GB; OS 10.5.6) in versions 8.0.1 and 8.0.2 of Live owing to a HUGE live-recording/monitoring delay. This delay does not occur in Live 7 (more specifically, I am able to record and overdub within Live 7.0.1.4 with Delay Compensation in place because there is an unnoticeable delay during the live audio recording process). In contrast, I am not able to record audio this way in Live 8.

Thorough testing shows that I can monitor audio during live recording in Live 7 (128 buffer) either though Live OR directly through my MOTU hardware WITH NO NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN TIMING/DELAY. In stark contrast, there is a huge (50-100 msec) delay between live audio monitoring/recording in Live 8 and direct monitoring through my MOTU hardware! Indeed, it is impossible to record vocals/guitars in sync with a drum track owing to the tremendous live-audio monitoring/recording delay.

Although a real pain, I can work around the audio recording problem in Live 8 by turning off monitoring in Live 8 (while keeping Delay Compensation on) and turning on direct hardware monitoring for the recorded instrument (and then reversing the process to listen to the recorded tracks while remembering to keep Delay Compensation on); however, working around the new delay discrepancy in Audio 8 while recording MIDI is much more difficult and time consuming since audio monitoring cannot be turned off (it entails turning off all plug-ins that impose delays and turning off delay compensation, while keeping Live's track monitoring in "auto" mode; then, the process must once again be reversed). This scenario is hardly compatible with the creative process!

I was assured that Live 8.0.2 would correct the unworkable monitoring delay added to Live 8.0.1, but it did not do so. I do not understand how this monitoring and recording delay crept into Live 8 from Live 7, but it makes for a very frustrating, inefficient, and difficult music making experience.

Peter E. Simson, Ph.D.
Brogue Studios
Oxford"

[jok]

Hi Peter,

sorry to hear that the problem came back.
Which 3rd party plug-ins do you use in the set? Does the problem also persist when you remove the plug-ins during the recording process? According to my information (the last mail you sent us regarding this problem) you had solved the problem with 8.0.1 by removing Vintage Warmer 2 from the master track during the recording process, please correct me if I am wrong.

Best regards,
Jörg

[medwaystudios]

Jorg,

I can confirm there are issues with 8 and latency as described above.

In 7 it seemed as if only latency added by 3rd party plugs on the master buss affected
the overall latency of the system. Now plugins on the track level contribute to this as well.

I have also noticed that the midi outs have latency when playing hardware devices. This
latency is also a product of both track and master buss plugins.

I have found that by adding a negative track delay on the midi track will allow
realtime playing to not suffer any latency from the track based buffers when
using VSTi's and both track and master buss based latencies on hardware midi.


So to sum up:

Track based plugins with latency now add to the overall latency of the system in
8 where as only master buss plugins affected 7.

Negative track delays on a midi channel remove the delay experienced depending
on whether the track is VST or Hardware:

VST plugs will only experience master buss delay

Midi outs will not experience any delay


I have also noticed that the play line doesn't always line up properly with the time line
depending on 3rd party plugs as well as the audio driver buffers. At the moment I haven't
narrowed it down to certain conditions that happen 100% though.

Additionally audio recorded from an external midi device is showing uncorrected latency
according to the buffer settings. For instance if my buffer is 49ms total latency my recorded audio
of the midi is 49ms late.

If I create an external instrument instance to control the same device and freeze and flatten
the resulting audio it is corrected fine.



Regards,

Jesse

[Phaedrum]

Perhaps the following clarification will help (Jorg: I sent you a copy via Support directly):

It is true that I found a work-around to the latency problem inherent to Live 8 when I first contacted Ableton about the issue (and that was why I was initially so happy). However, over time that workaround has become a nuisance and should NOT be necessary as the problem does not exist in Live 7!

Here is the EXACT situation in a simple test setup:

I have a MIDI drum track and a MIDI bass (external hardware Virus C) track playing in sync. I have Ozone 4 on the Master Track and Vintage Warmer on the drum--but not the bass--track. All is well--the drums and bass play in perfect sync. Now I attempt to record a vocal track. This is what happens:

1) Even with ALL plug-ins removed (Ozone on the Master track, Vintage Warmer on the drum track) and Delay Compensation enabled (which should not be a factor), there is a 29 msec delay (128 sample buffer, although reductions to the buffer make little difference) when monitoring live audio (e.g., vocal) through Live 8 (CRITICAL: a delay that does NOT OCCUR in Live 7!). Further, that 29 msec delay appears (and must be corrected afterward in order for the audio to play in sync with the bass and drum tracks) in the recorded vocal track (once again, the recorded delay does NOT appear in Live 7). Note that I use the exact same setup when comparing Live 7 and Live 8.

2) When using Ozone on the Master track and Vintage Warmer on my drum track during audio (vocal) recording (and Delay Compensation enabled), there is a huge (100 msec) delay in my monitors and on the recorded track that must be adjusted afterward in order for the vocal audio to play in sync with the drum track and the bass track. And here is the most important part: with the EXACT same setup, there is no such delay in Live 7 (i.e., Live 7 records the audio dead-on perfectly in sync right on the beats)!

Perhaps you can now see why your responses miss the point--there is an inherent delay in Live 8 that is not occurring in Live 7.

Thank you for investigating this issue.

Dr. Peter E.Simson

[medwaystudios]

This sounds like the same thing that is happening on my end as well regarding recording live instruments
when comparing 7 and 8.

[jok]

Hi Phaedrum,

thanks for the detailed description of the problem, we´re investigating the issue.
Medwaystudios, just to make sure: are you also using 8.0.2?

Best,
Jörg