[6377] External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

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triss
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by triss » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:34 pm

hey l-rs/all,

i haven't looked in to running inside renoise yet as i need VSTs and really want ableton in stand alone mode.

i have however managed to get TWO COPIES OF LIVE ON TWO DIFFERENT LAPTOPS TO SYNC PERFECTLY, slaved to midi time code being generated by MIDI-OX. it seems to be bang on after tweaking the midi clock sync delay (by -100ms!) on the slave without midi-ox running on it.

fake_account let me know how to do it in this thread: http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123021

i literally did this about ten minutes ago and am grinning ear to ear currently. :lol:

unfortunately i haven't yet worked out how to get midi ox to run at any bpm other 120! i'm gonna be posting my questions about sorting this in the other thread.

Cheers,
tris

herrreinholt
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by herrreinholt » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:50 am

My Version of live is synced by a TR-808 with a Korg KMS 30 Synchronizer and an Emagic AMT 8, works fine here. I had to fiddle around with the midi settings (delay) to get the recordings perfectly aligned with tracks in ableton but it works now, had to lower the lateny though.

It also works the the other way round.

R.A.W.
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by R.A.W. » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:02 pm

triss wrote:unfortunately i haven't yet worked out how to get midi ox to run at any bpm other 120! i'm gonna be posting my questions about sorting this in the other thread.
afaik there's no need. you can set the bpm on both slaves before you enable external sync. MTC just sends an tempo independent time code.

the only problem with this setup is that both lives got no latency compensation when they both run as slave.
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triss
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by triss » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:38 pm

cheers raw got that sorted in the end. was clearly having a bit of a dense moment.

what issues can expect with no latency correction. was running a couple of VSTs yesterday and didn't notice any problems.

will some of them run out of sync? is this true of ableton internals as well?

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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by R.A.W. » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:58 pm

the internal effects also have latency, e.g. the limiter (because of the look ahead), but they are very low.

i had problems when we ran my machine as the slave as my notebook is a little slower than my bandmate's. when i used a lot of effects in the same channel, i could hear tracks running out of sync on my machine, e.g. i had many effects on the drum track and it was laid back compared to my bassline.
we solved that by using my notebook as master while my bandmate's laptop is the slave now. he has a smaller latency as he's got the more powerful machine and he doesn't use as much effects on his tracks as i do. ;)


btw.: i don't understand at all why live can't use latency delay compensation when running as slave. i hope someday ableton will change this.
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triss
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by triss » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:16 am

thnaks for the info raw.

haven't actually hit any issues yet but at least i'm likely to know what the issue is if it hits us.

cheers,
tris

benjamingordon
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by benjamingordon » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:11 pm

Hello people...

Im going to email Ableton support directly with this issue so please write anything you'd like them to know relating to this issue...

Thanks, Benji

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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by R.A.W. » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:41 pm

my wishlist is short:

1. make live send MTC, too, as well as MIDI clock
2. make live use latency compensation even when running as slave
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triss
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by triss » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:42 pm

i'd like to be able to change bpm whilst playing and have my laptops stay well in sync as non MTC midi sync wobbles all over the place.

If midi isn't reliable enough a method for syncing two copies of ableton live another method needs to be come up with, maybe there own special sync feature and protocol is neccesary.

i don't htink this would be too difficult to create.

l-rs
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by l-rs » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:54 pm

Venting for a moment...

I'm getting so DAMNED frustrated by Live. I'm on 8.0.8, my TR-707 is the master, it also kickstarts my 303 for a tight sync but the BPM swaggers ALL OVER THE PLACE.

I'm looking at it now: 126 BPM on the 707 and Live shifts the BPM from 123.38 to 125.77 (not even reaching 126!). This setup is unchanged from Live 6 (and earlier - I started with Live 4) and I can't fix this. The huge shifts are noticeable and makes my stuff sound like crap, because the 303 and Ableton are not synced.

I have had contact with Live support over this, but they simply stopped mailing back for some reason. Last thing I sent them was August 26th and yes, I was civilized and open for suggestions. WinXP with latest drivers, Core 2 Duo 3.0 GHz, latest available ASIO 2 drivers for my ESI ESP1010, loads of RAM - the hardware isn't the problem.

I've done all optimizations known to man, this is just my studio machine, my main computer in the living room is an iMac. The studio machine is not used for anything else than music production. No games, no bothersome software, no virusscanner weighing down the system.

So I'm just left with a frustrating experience with no solution in sight. When I load up 6.0.11 that's still on my system, the BPM is fine, which just adds insult to injury. All my sets are in 7 format and up, so I couldn't even go back if I wanted to.

RAAAAAH!

:|
I've got some stuff here:
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benjamingordon
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by benjamingordon » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 pm

That is my BIGGEST problem with Live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have exactly the same thing!

I think i remember a solution was to sync ableton from my MPC and also send out to my other MIDI gear from my MPC (a much more reliable midi sequencer than live)

8)

blablub
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by blablub » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:05 am

just wanna throw in my 2 sync problems in live in here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9Dkh83rIY this accures since live later then 7.0.10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYAnK9eJPVE this sucks...
i really hope, that they´ll take care bout the sync mess... soon...

greetz
blablub

l-rs
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by l-rs » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:12 pm

I effing swore I'd not do it, but I rewired my setup so that Ableton can be master. The 707 is out of the loop, my TB-303 is connected to the DINSYNC-jack on my trusty Syntecno Teebee. The Teebee gets the clock signal and starts the 303 when I press SPACE in Ableton.

However, the Syntecno requires MTC for a tight sync, which Ableton doesn't send apparantly. :?:

Now I have to f*ck around with inserting millisecond delays on the outgoing midi port, which SOMETIMES gets the 303 to sync, but after a reboot or even a different set within the same session I have to retweak it with different values. The sync is also 'off' by a minute amount - too small for many people but enough for me to notice. I'm anal about that, I guess.

So, it basically sounds like shit - so I'm rewiring again to make the 707 the master. At least I tried, eh? I can't understand why Live 4, 5 and 6 worked like a charm and this wobble is introduced in 7 and is still around 8.08.

It's killing - well, no, not killing, but HAMPERING, my creative spark. Depressing as hell. :evil:
I've got some stuff here:
http://www.zuur.com/

l-rs
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by l-rs » Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:51 pm

Just came across this thing:

http://users.telenet.be/darffader/rv0/

If Ableton is unwilling (or unable) fix it, we have to try alternatives. Just annoyed it wasn't here before version 7. :(
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Ubik
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Re: External Sync - Wobbly Tempo. . . ?!?!

Post by Ubik » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:53 am

Hi all, been an active reader but first time poster :)

I have the exact same problem, it's been getting me mad since version 7 and i hoped it would be fixed with 8.
I have live 8.1 running on a macbook core2duo 2.0ghz, mac os 10.6.2, mbox2 and novation remote sl37 with latest automap pro.
I'm using the midi with another mac running live 8. The slave tempo is always messy, i never had this problem when i was on live 6.
Could this be an issue with automap ?

Any solutions, hints are most welcome.. as we're having a gig on tuesday and sync is needed... or not...

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