Ableton Live alternative?

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R.A.W.
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by R.A.W. » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:10 pm

chromaform wrote:
fake_account wrote: It's very unfortunate that there are no real alternative/competition products out there when it comes to non-linear work-flow. Because of that you either have to deal with/learn Live or use more traditional concept. Bad luck! :wink:
That explains the price too [= oh well. Market opportunity, anyone? lol
i have to say that live is very reasonable priced, most other software is more expansive when you take into account what live is capable of out-of-the-box...

and i made music when you still had to buy expensive hardware synths and samplers, so for me software prices are heaven on earth...
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H20nly
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by H20nly » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:14 pm

^ now there's a true statment.

Imagine what it cost to get your CD "ready" for mastering just 10 years ago... 15...20 *oof*

chromaform
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by chromaform » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:55 pm

R.A.W. wrote:
chromaform wrote:
fake_account wrote: and i made music when you still had to buy expensive hardware synths and samplers, so for me software prices are heaven on earth...
Yes, the same argument that's been around since the late 90s :)
I actually bought my now-expensive analogue hardware back when people were practically throwing it away (read: 1988-1992). MS-20 I picked up for $220, Moog Prodigy I picked up for $50, Juno for $250, JEN SX-1000 for free, Oberheim OB-8 for $100 even, TR-909 for $75, and so on. (I had a feeling at the time...) It's only expensive now because a lot of people have re-discovered them after digital limitations started to become more evident, then attaching dubious prices to the real hardware. Booo

As far as expensive, yes, my stuffed Capybara (lol) did cost more than your PC, but also boasts a composite speed of 11 or so Ghz of realtime DSP with no OS overhead (equalling more digital power than your PC and my Mac put together, I promise you), and the benefit of the Kyma X interface. Capybara FTW :P

For me, I just choose the tool that best matches what I want to hear and how I want to control it, and that means a mixture of today's and yesterday's stuff for me. :) To each his own.
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chromaform
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by chromaform » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:57 pm

H20nly wrote:^ now there's a true statment.

Imagine what it cost to get your CD "ready" for mastering just 10 years ago... 15...20 *oof*

Yea, a little less than the cost of Ableton Suite 8 actually, if you say 14-18 years ago. - I bought my analogue stuff when people were giving it away....
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Kyma X, Digital Performer 2.7 & 6, Logic Express, Master Trax Pro 5.2.

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Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:53 pm

noisetonepause wrote:
chromaform wrote:The other thing is, what do you do when Ableton goes out of business? How do you "authorize" any future machines when you upgrade/change out your own hardware?
You don't do anything. You're fucked. It's proprietary software, with a proprietary file format meaning when Ableton no longer activate Live, all the music you've made with it is essentially gone.

I know I'm not going to get anywhere quoting Stallman round these parts, but it's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks this is an issue.
Actually to NI's benefit, they addressed this same issue years ago saying that if they went under they would release the serials to the owners. Hopefully maybe people get Ableton to do the same?

chromaform
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by chromaform » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:03 am

Machinesworking wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:
chromaform wrote:The other thing is, what do you do when Ableton goes out of business? How do you "authorize" any future machines when you upgrade/change out your own hardware?
You don't do anything. You're fucked. It's proprietary software, with a proprietary file format meaning when Ableton no longer activate Live, all the music you've made with it is essentially gone.

I know I'm not going to get anywhere quoting Stallman round these parts, but it's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks this is an issue.
Actually to NI's benefit, they addressed this same issue years ago saying that if they went under they would release the serials to the owners. Hopefully maybe people get Ableton to do the same?
Good point! That would make me feel much safer on the investment. And kudos to NI for being real about it. Thanks for the info.
Macbook Pro, Powerbook G4, Beige G3, LC475, Capybara 320.

Kyma X, Digital Performer 2.7 & 6, Logic Express, Master Trax Pro 5.2.

MS-20, Juno-106, Prodigy, JEN SX1000, Sherman Filterbank, Doepfer-A100 modules, Andromeda A6, TR-909, Control Freak SE.

noisetonepause
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by noisetonepause » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:10 pm

Funny, I had to give up getting Reaktor 4 to work on my olde OS9 PowerBook the other day, as I couldn't authorise it via their website.
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

magestro
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by magestro » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:12 am

d-track wrote:maybe i am too old but i used trackers as fast tracker, scream tracker, impulse tracker, then fruity loops, logic, cubase sx, and finally: live.
all of them are easy to learn if u start playing with them for some days, but none of those was that easy learning curve that live has.
this interface is definitely "logic"

+1

its all the same in different looks

dokken
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by dokken » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:40 am

chromaform wrote:I'm new here and just trying out the Demo version of Live 8.

I've heard many good things about Live but I am very disappointed- so far. Firstly the non-standard user interface. I know that I will have to read instructions if I plan on doing "advanced" things. But it took me about half an hour just to figure out how to zoom in to a waveform, and 5 more minutes to figure out how to scroll. These things should just use standard controls, and should not require one read instructions for such a basic task. You know, like a SCROLL BAR. I understand Ableton is trying to look cool and different with their user interface, but things like this just ruin the user experience for me. Com on, would a scroll bar have killed anyone? I am thinking.. if scrolling is this unusual, is the rest of the program even more non-standard? It probably just goes downhill from here.

Then I read all the horror stories about the "activation" messing up if you switch off ethernet, etc etc. Not only do I disagree with the general idea of hardware codes, they are proven to cause problems, sometimes at the worst times.

All this said, what are the other options out there? In my case I just want to load some tracks, have their tempos detected, break them up into smaller clips, and then cue the clips in any desired order with tempo-matching. Options? I don't care if it costs $1000, I'm more than willing to plop out the cash for a good program, it just has to work and use industry-standard interface elements.

Thanks in advance!
I think Acid Pro might be more suitable for your needs then. It's interface has a look and feel that is much more standard than most DAWs I've used. It was one of the first programs that was able to detect a samples tempo so it's thought to excel at that. I think most people find it fairly easy to use too. I think it's only available on the PC though.

Having said that I will say that I don't personally like Acid that much myself. I think Ableton Live is one of the best DAWs I've used. I really had a problem with the interface at first too but I've grown to appreciate it a lot more and maybe even prefer it to a more standard interface.

Nokatus
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by Nokatus » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:12 am

chromaform wrote:But it took me about half an hour just to figure out how to zoom in to a waveform, and 5 more minutes to figure out how to scroll. These things should just use standard controls, and should not require one read instructions for such a basic task. You know, like a SCROLL BAR.
The way you navigate a waveform in Live is easily among the most efficient, intuitive and mouse movement saving ways of doing this in any audio software. Years ago, when this functionality was new, the GUI design was one of the main things that sold Live to me; it was just so much more comfortable and faster than the "standard controls". You know, like a SCROLL BAR :wink:

H20nly
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by H20nly » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:51 am

^
Nokatus wrote: The way you navigate a waveform in Live is easily among the most efficient, intuitive and mouse movement saving ways of doing this in any audio software. Years ago, when this functionality was new, the GUI design was one of the main things that sold Live to me; it was just so much more comfortable and faster than the "standard controls". You know, like a SCROLL BAR :wink:
+ 1

I won't go so far as to say "any audio" software but I'll say just as good as or better than any audio software I've used.

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:13 pm

H20nly wrote:^
Nokatus wrote: The way you navigate a waveform in Live is easily among the most efficient, intuitive and mouse movement saving ways of doing this in any audio software. Years ago, when this functionality was new, the GUI design was one of the main things that sold Live to me; it was just so much more comfortable and faster than the "standard controls". You know, like a SCROLL BAR :wink:
+ 1

I won't go so far as to say "any audio" software but I'll say just as good as or better than any audio software I've used.
Honestly I would have to disagree. I love Live, but the UI is hideous for advanced users. Great for beginners, but once you can get your way around mousing here and there, the lack of global keyboard shortcuts for navigation is annoying. You mouse so much more in Live than in Logic, it's really pretty drastic. Just basic moving around in the Arrangement or opening up MIDI editors if you happen to be someone who uses both hands to play the keyboards, takes much longer in Live.
Live is great out the door, but the user configurability of the interface is nil compared to DP or Logic. It means that anybody can walk up to your computer and navigate comfortably but only because major portions of interface navigation are mouse moves.

H20nly
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by H20nly » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:37 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
H20nly wrote:^
Nokatus wrote: The way you navigate a waveform in Live is easily among the most efficient, intuitive and mouse movement saving ways of doing this in any audio software. Years ago, when this functionality was new, the GUI design was one of the main things that sold Live to me; it was just so much more comfortable and faster than the "standard controls". You know, like a SCROLL BAR :wink:
+ 1

I won't go so far as to say "any audio" software but I'll say just as good as or better than any audio software I've used.
Honestly I would have to disagree. I love Live, but the UI is hideous for advanced users. Great for beginners, but once you can get your way around mousing here and there, the lack of global keyboard shortcuts for navigation is annoying. You mouse so much more in Live than in Logic, it's really pretty drastic. Just basic moving around in the Arrangement or opening up MIDI editors if you happen to be someone who uses both hands to play the keyboards, takes much longer in Live.
Live is great out the door, but the user configurability of the interface is nil compared to DP or Logic. It means that anybody can walk up to your computer and navigate comfortably but only because major portions of interface navigation are mouse moves.
I totally see what you're saying... however the fact that anyone can walk up and use it could also be viewed as "easier" aka "more intuitive".

In all fairness I use a Remote Zero SL so that cuts down on a lot of mouse movements for me, but when it comes to certain "moves" I would like either more shortcuts or - to know more shortcuts... I won't let my lack of knowledge of shortcuts be Ableton's fault.

I haven't used Logic. I have used Cubasis VST, Cubase SX3, Cubase 4, Live 5.5, 6, and 7, Battery 3, Fruity Loops 3,5,7 & 8, Acid (? version - years ago 2001-ish). Like Nokatus says above: "Live is easily among the most efficient, intuitive and mouse movement saving ways of doing this.." when compared to those pieces of... of... software

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:13 am

H20nly wrote: I totally see what you're saying... however the fact that anyone can walk up and use it could also be viewed as "easier" aka "more intuitive".
You didn't say 'more intuitive' you said as good as or better etc. I'm talking about what its like when you're really comfortable with the interface, how the intuitiveness fades away, and you're left hating the fact that to edit busy MIDI parts that aren't just a single hand playing a couple notes, you're up against the lack of screensets and keyboard shortcuts that allow you not to click and drag every 20 seconds etc.
In all fairness I use a Remote Zero SL so that cuts down on a lot of mouse movements for me, but when it comes to certain "moves" I would like either more shortcuts or - to know more shortcuts... I won't let my lack of knowledge of shortcuts be Ableton's fault.
Sure, but if you somehow find a "toggle piano roll MIDI editor to full screen" let me know OK? because from what I've seen so far, it's a matter of click/dragging etc.
I haven't used Logic. I have used Cubasis VST, Cubase SX3, Cubase 4, Live 5.5, 6, and 7, Battery 3, Fruity Loops 3,5,7 & 8, Acid (? version - years ago 2001-ish). Like Nokatus says above: "Live is easily among the most efficient, intuitive and mouse movement saving ways of doing this.." when compared to those pieces of... of... software
Battery 3 is IMO much better at previewing new sounds than Live Drum Racks do, beyond that I would agree that Cubase is clunky... though it's got it's advantages, they all do. :)

Nokatus
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Re: Ableton Live alternative?

Post by Nokatus » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:29 pm

Yeah, good points all around. I agree, user configurability for keyboard controls would be a big +1000. In any case, the layout and functionality Live offers, provided that you learn the keyboard modifiers and shortcuts in addition to the mouse interface (that's actually _very_ important when using Live on a "power user" level), offers a very smooth and efficient ride imo.

Definitely familiar with the history of DAW GUIs over here too, btw... :) I started out on trackers in the beginning of 90s, and got familiar with the piano roll and horizontal multitracking stuff with the early MIDI sequencers packed with the first consumer audio cards (horrible stuff now, but back then just crazy cool). My first "real" MIDI/Audio sequencer was Logic for PC. When Emagic was bought out, I continued to use the final PC version, and started to make the transition to Cubase.

Bought a license for Live at that time too, to use it as an additional improvisational workspace. Relatively soon I noticed I was surprisingly using Live for most things, and pretty soon switched to using it exclusively... And have upgraded the license ever since. Finally bought the whole suite at version 8 :D

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