axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

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33tetragammon
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axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by 33tetragammon » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:40 pm

hi,

mac osx 10.5.6
live 8.04 problem with axiom pro 49 :

-i have an AU/VST plugin on a track,and when i select "map mode"(and map plugin controls after that),the "plugin on/off" is always automatically mapped to the first knob,even if i didn't map it myself )

-peek function(by pressing "edit" and "zone/grp" buttons simultaneously)freezes the controllers for a short time.

i have all the latest updates btw.

cheers!

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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by 33tetragammon » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:42 pm

updated and refined bug report:

mac osx 10.5.6
Live 8.04

noticed some bugs in the Ableton Live hypercontrol:

-when i press "peek",i can't move any controls anymore(they freeze),unless i "un-peek".

-when dealing with plugins in live 8,the first knob is always assigned to device on/off(like it was before in Live 7),even if i didn't map it that way.
also,on the axiom pro's lcd screen,i don't even see the first knob assigned to device on/off(but show the controls like i mapped them).

-drumpads don't work with impulse(even if i assign other note numbers,you know:c3 and upwards).strange thing is that they DO work with Live's drumracks.
i also have no idea how to switch to any of the other drumpad banks when controlling Ableton Live.
couldn't find it in the user manual

all the best,
Last edited by 33tetragammon on Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

mrbiggs
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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by mrbiggs » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:56 am

Same problems here. Impulse is not responding. No idea how to change to pads 9-16 (etc) in Drum Rack, and I'm having a recurring problem in both Reason and Live where after some time the whole thing just quits responding in Hypercontrol. The numeric pads still work, but nothing assigned to Hypercontrol. Restarting the Axiom doesn't help, but restarting the apps works.
I'm on Mac 10.5.8, Live 8.0.4. I don't know which firmware of the Axiom I'm on since there is no obvious way to tell and the firmware updater doesn't work in 10.5.8.
So far lots of frustration. Nice keyboard otherwise.
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33tetragammon
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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by 33tetragammon » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:29 am

mrbiggs wrote: No idea how to change to pads 9-16 (etc) in Drum Rack.
i don't know how to do that either(yet).
maybe it has something to do with zones/groups on the axiom pro.
or it's just a bug in Live,
because when the Axiom Pro is not in Hypercontrol mode(when Live is not running),i CAN swith between different the four drumpadbanks by pressing the softkeys beneath the lcd screen.
seems to work with Protools judging by those videos on the M-audio site.

i'm on mac osx 10.5.6 btw,can update without any problems.

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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by mrbiggs » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:26 pm

33tetragammon wrote:
mrbiggs wrote: No idea how to change to pads 9-16 (etc) in Drum Rack.
because when the Axiom Pro is not in Hypercontrol mode(when Live is not running),i CAN swith between different the four drumpadbanks by pressing the softkeys beneath the lcd screen.
seems to work with Protools judging by those videos on the M-audio site.
.
These drum pads are confusing. Generally, I don't think M-Audio has done a good job of distinguishing what is for "Hypercontrol" and what is for regular midi. The four different banks of pads don't seem to be documented at all. I read a review in FutureMusic that says that they are for general-midi, switching between standard kick, snare, toms, hi-hat etc. But this isn't mentioned anywhere in the user manual. In addition, preset 19 for Live IS documented, and it says it's meant to work with "classic" Axiom, not Hypercontrol. Why on earth would you buy the Axiom Pro and want to use it in classic mode only?

I've read your posts on the M-Audio forums and I'm having similar issues to yours, as well as several others. But again, I can't tell what's a bug and what's supposed to be happening since the documentation is so incomplete.

cheers
B
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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by mrbiggs » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:13 pm

Replying to myself here. I thought I'd post a list of the issues I'm having with my Axiom Pro 49 and Ableton Live. I hope that either others might have some solutions, Ableton or M-Audio might have fixes, or others might add to this list. Thanks to tetragammon for his previous posts that helped me out a lot over the weekend.

M-Audio isn't posting much about these issues. There are quite a few dangling threads on their forum and the rep seems to either not know ("I don't know how that is supposed to work.") or believes that the problems are with Ableton. I'm not sure I understand how Ableton is supposed to fix their software, that otherwise works fine, to work with M-Audio's keyboard. Seems the other way around is more likely. In any case, I hope this doesn't become a case of Ableton blaming M-Audio and M-Audio blaming Ableton. Someone needs to make some decent documentation.

- Impulse doesn't work at all with the Axiom Pro pads. Drum Racks work fine.
- Control of Live intermittently drops out. I can regain it sometimes by holding down the two "peek" buttons while turning knobs. Other times I have to restart Live.
- Handles 3rd party devices (VST and AU) inconsistently. Some are mapped perfectly, some, like all Native Instruments plug-ins, aren't mapped at all. There is no documentation for using 3rd party plugs. How do you make extra banks of controllers, for instance?
- Defaults to encoder 1 turning 3rd party AUs and VSTs on-off. A bypass button should work for this rather than a knob. Also, can't be over-ridden.
- When in session mode, the loop transport button is supposed to launch and record into a new clip when that clip-space's track is armed. This works with my old Axiom but not with the Pro. It merely flashes the launch button and leaves the space blank.
- When in device mode, if I am recording into an armed track, when I click with mouse or with Axiom to go to another track (say to launch a new clip, or record automation), the recording track disarms and stops recording and the track I went to is now armed. This isn't correct. The armed and recording track should stay armed and recording no matter what track I move to.
- When in device mode, clips cannot be deleted using the delete key on my qwerty keyboard. Delete deletes the current device instead, which is incredibly inconvenient. I have to go to mixer mode to delete that clip.
- With Hypercontrol, how does one move along the various devices in a track? I can go from track to track, but if I have a synth and a delay in the same track, I should be able to jump from one to the other with the bank buttons or something, yes?
- With Logic, one can pick a track and choose a device to insert, all from the Axiom pro. Why not with Ableton? The process is very similar.
- preset 19, the preset for Ableton, is useless. Almost all the numeric buttons are labeled "trigger" but they don't seem to do anything. The manual states that the Ableton preset is designed to work with Axiom classic, which is a different setting in Live's midi prefs. Why in the world would I have this Axiom Pro if I wanted it to work in "classic" mode? Reason's preset has all kinds of nice uses for the numeric pad.

Hopefully these issues will get ironed out. This thing works great in Reason, but Live is where I'm happier.
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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by 33tetragammon » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:32 pm

- When in session mode, the loop transport button is supposed to launch and record into a new clip when that clip-space's track is armed. This works with my old Axiom but not with the Pro. It merely flashes the launch button and leaves the space blank.
hmmm,don't have that problem here.
- When in device mode, if I am recording into an armed track, when I click with mouse or with Axiom to go to another track (say to launch a new clip, or record automation), the recording track disarms and stops recording and the track I went to is now armed. This isn't correct. The armed and recording track should stay armed and recording no matter what track I move to.
when a track is record enabled in my set,i can't un-arm it with the mouse,only from the axiom pro.(yup,another bug!)


- With Hypercontrol, how does one move along the various devices in a track? I can go from track to track, but if I have a synth and a delay in the same track, I should be able to jump from one to the other with the bank buttons or something, yes?
you can assign keycommands to the pads and numerical keyboard.(left/right arrow select previous/next device)
here's what i assigned to the numerical keys:

1 :clip/track view
2 : up
3 : draw
4 : left
5 : enter
6 :right
7 : session/arrangementview
8 : down
9 : open/close pluginwindow
- : zoom out
0 : undo
+ : zoom in


hope that helps!

mrbiggs
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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by mrbiggs » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:50 pm

Thanks for the reply, tetragammon. Assigning numerical buttons to these commands is a great idea.
But I think I'm taking this thing back. I got out my old Axiom 25 last night and I was so happy to have, ironically, control of Ableton back. With the mapping that Live has with its presets, the old Axioms do pretty much everything "Hypercontrol" does but without completely taking over everything. Need the LFO rate in Operator turned? It can do that. Sure it doesn't tell you on the little screen what it's doing, but it works. And, especially, I know what it's doing with my 3rd party plugs.

Granted, with Reason Hypercontrol is spectacular. But there are just too many bugs and too little feedback from M-Audio to happily make music in Ableton.
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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by 33tetragammon » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:07 pm

- Handles 3rd party devices (VST and AU) inconsistently. Some are mapped perfectly, some, like all Native Instruments plug-ins, aren't mapped at all.
oh my god!just tried this out:




-Absynth 4 -AU -no,works fine here.
-VST -axiom pro says : "no device".

Reaktor 5 -AU -plugin gets mapped,but i get parameterjumps inside Reaktor(doesn't matter if in Live's
prefs i set it to "pickup" or "take over".

-VST -axiom pro says : "no device".


luckily i have Kore 2 for plugins.but people who use it on Windows and don't own Kore 2 CAN'T even control their plugins!
seriously,this is really starting to look very very bad.


Biggs,do you have ANY problems of this kind in Logic(which version do you use)?

if not,then that's one more reason for me to switch to Logic.

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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by mrbiggs » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:08 pm

33tetragammon wrote:
Biggs,do you have ANY problems of this kind in Logic(which version do you use)?

if not,then that's one more reason for me to switch to Logic.

I don't have Logic at all. I read that Logic works really well with the Axiom Pro.

I use Live, 3rd party plugs, and Reason.
My experience with Reaktor on the Axiom is that VSTs are recognized, but only map the on/off switch to encoder 1, and encoder maps whatever the last paramater was used last. So if I turn a knob with mouse, encoder 2 maps that. If I turn a different knob, the new one takes over encoder 2. When I 'configure' the VST on Ableton's devices, of course, the Axiom Pro picks this up and controls them just fine -- but seemingly only to 64 parameters (8 groups of 8 encoders). Therefore, for the last few days I've saved several instances of Reaktor ensembles as Live Instrument Racks and presets. Clean workaround, if slightly tedious.

So far, all my Audio Damage plug ins and Sonic Charge plug ins are mapped nicely. I've packed the Axiom Pro up to take it back, so I won't able to test any others. I wonder how it would have handled PSP Nitro, which has a pretty complicated system.

Here's what I gather -- Live was a late implementation for the Axiom folks. Logic and ProTools and Reason all seem to work great from what I can read. Reason I've tried and it's freaking perfect. Very easy to figure out. But Live still seems to have kinks. My problem is not that it has kinks, it's that no one at M-Audio seems to be working on this. Some of the posts on M-Audio's forum are two months old and the threads are just left hanging. The Live/Axiom manual that was published a few weeks ago is basically just a description of what the encoders turn. Well, who needs that? The Axiom tells us this information.

Good luck -- I'm curious where this goes, even if I won't have my Axiom Pro much longer.
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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by 33tetragammon » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:57 pm

I don't have Logic at all. I read that Logic works really well with the Axiom Pro.

ok thanks!
bit of advice:
just don't buy a novation remote sl mk2.i've had one of those before i returned it to the store,and got the axiom pro instead.
it's led's don't work in advanced mode,so useless for controlling Live OR reason if you want more visual feedback.(they only work in automap mode).
plus their tech support is an utter joke.i mailed them a big list of faults,and all they said was :

"we're sorry for your disappointment"

take care,and all the best!

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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by helas » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:00 pm

I'm also having all the problems you listed, mrbiggs.

My biggest gripe, beyond 3rd party plugs being mapped strangely in some cases, is the fact I cannot access plugin parameters beyond the first 64 when using HyperControl. Like you said, M-Audio aren't of much help--my thread is still dangling.

Yes, there are some quirks, like automatically arming whatever track you move to, or being stuck in certain screens and having to "peek" infuriatingly to get back.. but I could get past those if parameters were at least consistently mapping! Some plugs don't map at all!

I think HyperControl should at least have a learn function in the instances it doesn't automatically map to controls. As it stands we can't use HyperControl and basic MIDI mapping at the same time. It's either one or the other. There needs to be some middle ground there.

Hoping Ableton can take control of this issue in the event M-Audio stays quiet. Or vice-versa!


Edited to include software versions. Windows XP SP3, Live 8.0.4, latest Axiom drivers (April!).

p.s. Yeah, drum pads mapping to Impulse would be nice...

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Re: axiom pro 49 hypercontrol bugs in Live 8.04

Post by Submersible » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:09 pm

mrbiggs wrote:In any case, I hope this doesn't become a case of Ableton blaming M-Audio and M-Audio blaming Ableton.
That is precisely what happened.
mrbiggs wrote: Hopefully these issues will get ironed out.
Could be wrong, but I don't think they ever did.

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