Live 8 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

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dinaiz
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Live 8 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by dinaiz » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:05 am

Hi !

I have something very strange happening in my setup.

If I have a track with Kore 2 VST on it, AND
- this track is selected
- kore 2 is the selected device

Then both APC40 and Kore 2 controler start blinking, live gets very slow for a while, then everything gets back to normal after a few seconds. I know, that's weird.
I can easily avoid the problem by selecting another track/device on the APC when I want to use kore 2 controler, but the thing is if I forget to do so, if totally screws up the playback of the current song, which is a bit annoying, live !



After a few investigations :
-If I select another device on this track (e.g.: an equalizer, but anything can do the trick) with the APC40, everything is normal
-Same thing if I select another track

After more investigations, I noticed that the APC40 seems to be sending midi messages to kore 2 (the VST) because the device control knob #1 controls sound morphing in the VST( In simpler terms, in case you don't know kore 2 : if I open the VST window, and move the APC knob, I can see stuff happening)

I think that's where the problem comes from : kore 2 controler and APC40 sending/receiving contradictory MIDI messages to Kore 2 VST, which results in a conflict, and thus, strange behaviour.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but, if I didn't setup any MIDI mapping, the APC40 isn't supposed to send anything MIDI to Kore 2 VST, even if it's the selected device, is it ?

(and if it's a "normal" behaviour, how to disable it ? i.e. APC40 NOT sending MIDI data to VSTs unless midi mapping is configured)

I really hope my message makes sense, any help will be much apreciated ! :)


P.S. : I tried midi-ox to see which data is coming from/to the APC40 but it makes midi-ox crash whenb I select APC40. Is it due to the infamous APC40 "secret handshake" ? :)
Last edited by dinaiz on Thu May 27, 2010 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gabrielsaint
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by gabrielsaint » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:16 am

Midi loop somewhere between the ins and outs?

dinaiz
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by dinaiz » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:31 pm

Well I thought about that too but :
-Kore 2 controler is only emiting to Kore 2 VST (i.e. not defined in Live in/out menu)
-APC40 shouldn't talk to kore 2 vst (or am I wrong on that one ?)

So I can't see any midi loop there ...

effnas
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by effnas » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:17 pm

dinaiz,

I have exactly the same prob as You do. Did You solve the issue??

AS

H20nly
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by H20nly » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:47 pm

reboot.

dinaiz
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by dinaiz » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:35 am

Nope I didn't solve it... The workaround is to select another track on the APC before using the morph controls on Kore 2. I tried everything (updating drivers, disabeling every MIDI I/O on Kore 2, and so on...) without success. I'm pretty sure the problem arose with a Kore 2 update . I think it was the 2.0.4, the one which brought the midi controler features to Kore 2 . I'm thinking of downgrading to 2.0.1 to see if it has a (hopefully positive) impact on the issue. I keep you posted.

dinaiz
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by dinaiz » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:33 pm

Ok I think I figured out what's going on ! :)
But no way to solve it yet ...and I think it's tricky :( .

When kore 2 is selected in ableton live, the APC40 controls it, like any other device , with the "DEVICE CONTROL" buttons. So basically the APC40 sends midi data to the Kore 2 VST. Nothing special so far.
Except that when you use Kore 2 controller as well, Kore 2 controller, also sends MIDI data to Kore 2 VST, and receives MIDI data from it.

So we have this situation

APC40 <=> Kore 2 VST <=> Kore 2 controler

If you move a knob on Kore 2 controler, then the MIDI data is sent to Kore 2 VST. If Kore 2 VSt is the currently selected device, APC40 updates it's display, to reflect the new parameter value, as well as Kore 2 controler, which must create some sort of midi loop. I think that's where the problem lies...

But still no solution unfortunately

jbone1313
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by jbone1313 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:48 pm

Dude, I have the same problem. This sucks!

Did you ever figure out what's going on? I try to disable Kore's MIDI controller functionality, but Kore seems to always reset it back.

jbone1313
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by jbone1313 » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:55 am

I think what's happening in this case is when you move multiple knobs on Kore--and they're "unconfigured" parameters (meaning, you haven't mapped them in the Live device), Live doesn't know how handle it and geeks out.

If you map the Kore knobs to the device, the problem goes away. Its obviously not feasible to map any and all Kore knobs though. (I think their automation prams change per Kore patch.)

I think Ableton needs to handle the case when a controller is controlling multiple, "unconfigured" parameters at the same time.

For now, I think the best you can do is only turn one Kore knob at a time. Or like you said, switch devices or tracks.

It doesn't help matters that Kore likes to be all jumpy with its knobs--notice the red ring moving around unexpectedly.

Sigh.

dinaiz
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by dinaiz » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:07 pm

jbone1313 wrote:I think what's happening in this case is when you move multiple knobs on Kore--and they're "unconfigured" parameters (meaning, you haven't mapped them in the Live device), Live doesn't know how handle it and geeks out.
Are you also talking about moving knobs in the "matrix" view, on the controler ? i.e : when the Kore 2 controler displays something like :


-----------------
| A | B | C | D |
-----------------
| E | F | G | H |
-----------------

Cause in that case, I have the problem even if I only move one knob !

jbone1313 wrote:If you map the Kore knobs to the device, the problem goes away. Its obviously not feasible to map any and all Kore knobs though. (I think their automation prams change per Kore patch.)
What do you mean ? Which parameters do you map exactly ?
jbone1313 wrote:I think Ableton needs to handle the case when a controller is controlling multiple, "unconfigured" parameters at the same time.
Definitely ! I think another guy has a similar problem with a Korg controler and the APC40

jbone1313
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by jbone1313 » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:29 pm

dinaiz wrote:Are you also talking about moving knobs in the "matrix" view, on the controler ?
I haven't tried that, but it makes sense that it would happen there.
dinaiz wrote: Cause in that case, I have the problem even if I only move one knob !
Right, because that one knob is moving multiple unconfigured parameters in the live device. Thus, the same result.

What do you mean ? Which parameters do you map exactly ?
I mean click the green "configure" button in Live's device. Assign Live's automation parameters to the knobs you want to move in Kore. For the matrix, you'd have to map each parameter moved by the matrix.
jbone1313 wrote:I think Ableton needs to handle the case when a controller is controlling multiple, "unconfigured" parameters at the same time.
Definitely ! I think another guy has a similar problem with a Korg controler and the APC40
It totally makes sense that this would happen with other controllers. I don't think its a Kore problem. The problem is that Live + APC40 can't handle moving multiple, non-configured parameters at the same time--from any controller.

The workaround I use: I'm running all of my Kore instances inside of an instrument rack.

You can also do your workarounds.

This still sucks though. Is there a way to write up a support ticket? Does Ableton monitor this part of the forum?

jbone1313
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by jbone1313 » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:40 pm

I just sent this to Ableton's support email:
Please, please fix this!

Live Version: 8.1
Computer: Intel Core 2 Quad, 8GB Ram, Win 7.
Audio Card: RME FireFace 400

Problem: Live + APC40 can't handle moving multiple, non-configured parameters at the same time. I'm testing with Kore 2, but this would probably happen with any controller.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Add Kore 2 to a MIDI track.
2. Ensure the Kore device is in focus, so that its communicating with the APC40.
3. Hit Play. (Or don't, but its easy to see how Live freezes-up if you do.)
4. Start moving multiple knobs on Kore at the same time.
5. Look at APC40's device knobs. The first one will be flickering oddly. Also, notice that live freezes for a moment if you've hit play.

This does not happen if the parameters you're moving have been "configured" or mapped to automation parameters in the Live device. Its a pain though, because its not feasible to map any and all parameters from Kore to Ableton.

DOCS DJ
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by DOCS DJ » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:08 am

Hey people! Any news from support???
I have also problem with this bundle :(

dinaiz
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by dinaiz » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:24 am

Yeah, it's time to wake up this thread !

housemusiclover
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Re: Live 8.0.5 + APC40 + Kore 2 = really weird stuff !

Post by housemusiclover » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:56 pm

I'm only using the kore free player with the apc40 but have the excat same problem.
When kore is blue-hand selected and i use the morph feature in kore, apc device controller 1 blinks and morphing is very sluggish.
In another thread someone didn't have this problem, so there's definitely something funky going on... :?
When i have morph x and y configured in the live vsti gui everything works as it should.

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