weird timing with syncing ext. using apc..kinda unsolved

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lars vom mars
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weird timing with syncing ext. using apc..kinda unsolved

Post by lars vom mars » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:50 am

hi

i mentioned this also before in another thread..
(problems in syncing my evolver to ableton)

But as i went deeper into working on my new live set
i noticed the following:

everytime i im doin much of editing
in the apc(f.e. using the arrow keys to
jump from scene 1 to scene 33 )
the sync gets lost..
means the triggered sequence from the evolver
is suddenly out of timing...
mostly i have to hit stop and start again to get a
steady timing again..

gets the evolver some kinda freaky midi messages from ableton or the apc
or does the apc affects the ableton sync implementation?

didnt test it yet without the apc...

read also in the forum that other users have problems in syncing ext.gear.

any help appreciated

GREETZ
LARS

using ableton live 8.05 and m audio firewire card for midi
never had problems in prev. version(live6)
Last edited by lars vom mars on Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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lars vom mars
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by lars vom mars » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:00 pm

hey
i found this program "midi ox"
in the net...

does it make a stable midi clock
for syncing extern (from ableton)?

how does it work?

thanx
lars
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Proof
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by Proof » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:05 pm

I have been having a similar problem - according to Ableton Tech Support - the issue is likely to be the fact we are trying to run both the control surface (APC, Launchpad) and also having a remote out set up on midi - i.e. external midi hardware.

Everytime you are moving around the session (I get the same issue just using the keys to move around) the system is sending out a massive pile of midi information to the remote output.

If you go 'slowly' its less of an issue - but still not really usable.

My understanding is that having anything running as a control surface and remote out is a bit of a no go.

I was also told, that apparently if you run external sync, internal plugin compensation no longer works - but yet to check that...
http://www.technicalsessions.com - Video Interviews of NZ's top Producers and DJs
http://www.bromidedub.com - Bromide Dub's Artist Page
Live PA - Ableton, VCM600, APC40, Nord Lead 2, DSI Evolver, Access Virus B, MachineDrum and more..

Proof
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by Proof » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:05 pm

Oh, and Midi Ox wont help in your case..

:)
http://www.technicalsessions.com - Video Interviews of NZ's top Producers and DJs
http://www.bromidedub.com - Bromide Dub's Artist Page
Live PA - Ableton, VCM600, APC40, Nord Lead 2, DSI Evolver, Access Virus B, MachineDrum and more..

lars vom mars
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by lars vom mars » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:00 pm

..nice.. 8O

but i need my evolver for my live set...
it s the only thing i can really
twist when i m playin live...
( apart from using the apc, which is not a real synth)

i cannot believe that these days
a sequencer cannot send out a stable sync signal to
ext. midi gear

p...ed lars
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Proof
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by Proof » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:12 pm

No, I don't think it's that.

My understanding is that the 'remote' output is getting pushed a pile of midi information each time something is changed inside the session inside of Ableton - enough to cause the midi side of the system to slow down..

It's a big pain for me as well - because I am essentially using Ableton as a Live Sequencer - controlling the Nord, Evolver & Virus - this, along with the MachineDrum providing sync, means the 95% of the Audio coming back into Ableton to be mixed lived, is based around midi, and hickups every time I try to navigate the sessions clips with the LaunchPad/APC.

If it worked, it would be a dream setup, for me, and the way I want to work - so I live with it - try to minimise the stutters while I figure out a way around it.

At the moment, either I turn off the remote output, which then lets the 'track' output to work properly, but I loose all visual feedback on the VCM600 - which is my main workspace for the mix. Or, I need to write a MidiTranslator Script to do the same thing that the LaunchPad does 'natively' - but through traditional Midi - something which I am sure will not work quite as well, and also introduce another layer of complexity to the set-up, which I would really like to avoid.

If I could find a way to filter out the excessive amount of information going out to the 'remote' outputs.. but then, that is coding beyond my knowledge..

Erm.. sorry, as a thought - while working through it in my head -

Do you actually have anything set-up with 'remote' on the output?

I might have just completely missed the mark in regards to your issue.. :)
http://www.technicalsessions.com - Video Interviews of NZ's top Producers and DJs
http://www.bromidedub.com - Bromide Dub's Artist Page
Live PA - Ableton, VCM600, APC40, Nord Lead 2, DSI Evolver, Access Virus B, MachineDrum and more..

lars vom mars
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:30 pm
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by lars vom mars » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:37 am

hi proof.:

thanx for infos..

i called the support the other day
and the only solution they gave me
was to disable the apc in the midi/sync pref.
under remote for midi out,
which didn t help me much yet
beside the fact that i cannot
map the apc then manually to ableton.

i will do it like you, playin live and avoid
to many edits /quick movements in live/apc
when performing,
which is not really
the way i would like to do it....

greetz
lars
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lars vom mars
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by lars vom mars » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:56 pm

hey,,

after messin around with midi drivers/
port preferences/midi latency settings
.. i give up on this.
i have the feeling it got even worse
..

is there no way to filter out these midi infos
live /apc is sending everytime you jump
to a different scene or select a track etc.
to the midi out port of my soundcard ?
the only way for me now is to record the evolver in live
as audio
which doesn t make much sense since
i would like to keep at least one hardware piece
to tweak in my live set....

greetz
lars
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Proof
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by Proof » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:24 pm

It seems a little strange to me, that no-one using a launchpad, or APC40 or the like has mentioned this before.

I guess most users arn't using hardware via midi anymore?

I have a Dark Energy on the way - so adding more hardware, I agree - definitely nice to have something to tweak in real-time..

Its a pity, that the new systems (which I can see becoming more and more common) isn't really compatible with the old midi system.

Like I mentioned, I think the filters would have to be internal - which is a higher level of coding than I want to get involved in.. I would personally like to be able to turn the 'follow' completely off.. but I guess that might interfere with the functionality of the launch pads?
http://www.technicalsessions.com - Video Interviews of NZ's top Producers and DJs
http://www.bromidedub.com - Bromide Dub's Artist Page
Live PA - Ableton, VCM600, APC40, Nord Lead 2, DSI Evolver, Access Virus B, MachineDrum and more..

lars vom mars
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:30 pm
Location: berlin/hamburg
Contact:

Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by lars vom mars » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:11 am

hey..

after browsing the net
i found a little program(clocker) (vst)
to put on a midi channel that generates its
own clock to a selectable out port.
(have to figure out how it really
works though these days)

yea i also see more and more the fact that im workin
with a software and a controller that really
lacks the communication to external gear over midi,
which is not acceptable for me.

i also thought about buying
an external clock+1 track sequencer,
but this is a little ridicolous
as i bought the apc to get rid of too much
gear to carry and to set up for performance.

greetz
lars
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Proof
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by Proof » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:46 am

I am already syncing to external clock (MachineDrum) so don't think that will help.

The issue really seems to be that each time I shirt around in the session, there is a pile of midi info sent out through the remote port and the midi notes (and I imagine clock output) is delayed/buffered up a bit..

I guess an external sync for everything, so the Evolver doesn't sync to/through Ableton 'might' help - but not so sure of that..

Will try tonight to see if that helps out at all - regardless, you are still going to have issues if you try to play the Evolver with any midi notes from Ableton..
http://www.technicalsessions.com - Video Interviews of NZ's top Producers and DJs
http://www.bromidedub.com - Bromide Dub's Artist Page
Live PA - Ableton, VCM600, APC40, Nord Lead 2, DSI Evolver, Access Virus B, MachineDrum and more..

lars vom mars
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:30 pm
Location: berlin/hamburg
Contact:

Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by lars vom mars » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:24 pm

mhh ...will try that clocker program though
at least give it a try..

but how do you play live if you got these hick ups all the time
as its really anyoing to have this on stage..
i saw u use a lot of gear on stage...


btw.
before i had played live with an mpc 2000 xl
syncing my ableton 6
only playing back some samples and loops..

worked 100% accurate



greetz
lars
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lars vom mars
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc

Post by lars vom mars » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:29 pm

hey..

finally i found a kind of solution:
if i set my buffer size at the soundcard on 384 samples
and changing the port type to direct music instead of mme
(which the apc uses as well)
it seems that the evolver doesn t get the weird midi messages any more,
(only the note on/of and snyc)
and stays more or less in time...
(13 ms..which is okay for playing live)

i was workin before with 512 buffer size and
when i changed to direct music the evolver was completely out of time

mhh.. now i got some crackles once in a time..
but i think can live with it for now


greetz
lars
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lars vom mars
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc..kinda solved

Post by lars vom mars » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:20 pm

...now the weird midi messages
are somehow filtered out using the direct music port under
midi /sync preferences for the midi out of my soundcard..
but the timing lacks still a lot
using midi clock,
evolver hangs more or less
behind ..
spended 6 hours messin around with midi clock latency (+/-)
no steady music here....:(

ableton ,please take care of this in further versions

thanx

lars
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lars vom mars
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Re: weird timing with syncing ext. using apc..kinda solved

Post by lars vom mars » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:42 am

yo..

since ableton 08.05 kicked my m-audio fitre wire card out...
(i select the driver but then it cannot open it anymore)

i bought a rme card from a friend to check out if
i can finally work with this and (un)ableton
as a set up for playin live..

but now my problem has returned in the old way ,
that everytime i hit a key on the apc or even my
computer keyborad
it affects the sync of/to my evolver (hardware synth)
/abletons midi clock..

anyone knows if they fixed this in version 8.1.1 ?

im still on version 8.05 and not sure
that 8.1.1 is much better

greetz
lars
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