Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

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Auton
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Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:36 pm

Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Auton » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:02 pm

Hi!

I've noticed that the new stutter edit plug from izotope generates diffrent results in diffrent latencys. Works well around 128 samples, when i'm working away and playing in "real time". When i have to adjust the latency to 2048 samples at a later stage, when mixing and so on, all the "gliching" and "chopping" is messed up.

Any one else using this plug? And if so, is there any way to get it to work properly, even with the latency cranked up?

Cheers,
/A

EX
Posts: 114
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by EX » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:08 pm

2048's a lot. Haven't played with my SE yet though.......

Is it true you can barely automate any of it?

Auton
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Auton » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:25 pm

EX wrote:2048's a lot. Haven't played with my SE yet though.......

Is it true you can barely automate any of it?
Yeah, unfortunatly i have to put the latency at max after a while because my MPB is over 3 years now. But it doesent bother me that much when im mixing though.

You are right that you cannot automate any of the SE parameters, but that really doesent matter, at least not when using it the way i do. I just make a few diffrent glich-patterns where i put here and there, sort of in the same way i use Sugar bytes Effectrix. SE is really great, but this latency issue makes it impossible to use for me though.

Delie
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Delie » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:30 pm

I noticed the same thing, with low buffer size it works much better. To be honest, I think that's not really Ableton Live's fault, and more to do with how the plugin works.

I guess if you need to increase the buffer at a later stage, the workaround would be to perform the effects, freeze, and dump to audio track.

Auton
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Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:36 pm

Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Auton » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:19 pm

Delie wrote:I noticed the same thing, with low buffer size it works much better. To be honest, I think that's not really Ableton Live's fault, and more to do with how the plugin works.

I guess if you need to increase the buffer at a later stage, the workaround would be to perform the effects, freeze, and dump to audio track.
Since i control the SE plug with a MIDI-track i dont think theres any way to freeze it as far as i know. I guess i'll have to either bounce or record it to an audio track within the project or something. Annoying.

Delie
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Delie » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:20 am

Yeah, good point - with the midi controlling the effect on a different track that makes sense actually. Guess it's going to be a little fiddly, doh!

ninox_rufa
Posts: 94
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by ninox_rufa » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:51 am

Delie wrote:I noticed the same thing, with low buffer size it works much better. To be honest, I think that's not really Ableton Live's fault, and more to do with how the plugin works.

I guess if you need to increase the buffer at a later stage, the workaround would be to perform the effects, freeze, and dump to audio track.
I think you might find that it is Ableton's fault.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157048

The audio passing through SE is effectively 'shifted in time' to compensate for the latency of the plugin. This is normal. Live does this well. It is as expected.
The stuttering effect in SE is synced to Live's transport. But for the stutter to stay in time it's 'syncing' actually has to be shifted by the same amount that the audio is shifted.
Here is the problem. Live does not do this. The result: SE will cut off the front of your audio and it will also be out of time with other tracks.

Typically the problem is only obvious if more than one plugin is put in front of a 'stutter' type plugin (because the more plugins, the more latency you get, the more the audio is out of time with the stutter). But in some cases like CamelSpace and (I suspect) SE, the plugin's own latency is enough to spoil the timing.

How much SE is affected by this problem depends on how much latency it has and/or on whether you put any other third party plugins in front of it.

Changing your buffer size in preferences will have an impact on how much you hear the problem.
MBP 2.3GHz QCore i7 4GB | Ultralite mk3 | 10.7.4 | Logic Pro 9.1.6

outershpongolia
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by outershpongolia » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:14 am

Also might have something to do with the fact that stutter edit needs to be constantly buffering

Theo Void
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Theo Void » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:21 am

Stutter Edit CAN be automated. Not in the traditional sense og drawing lines of automation but by using a MIDI track that is armed and drawing in the notes.

outershpongolia
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by outershpongolia » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:18 pm

Sunsetter wrote:Stutter Edit CAN be automated. Not in the traditional sense og drawing lines of automation but by using a MIDI track that is armed and drawing in the notes.
and I supposed you can draw in the pitch bend and mod wheel automation as well but people want to really get in there and automate all the parameters available..

I'd say they didn't want to sort out how mapping/automation would work when your switching gestures and what not

Delie
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Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Delie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:17 pm

ninox_rufa wrote:
Delie wrote:I noticed the same thing, with low buffer size it works much better. To be honest, I think that's not really Ableton Live's fault, and more to do with how the plugin works.

I guess if you need to increase the buffer at a later stage, the workaround would be to perform the effects, freeze, and dump to audio track.
I think you might find that it is Ableton's fault.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157048

The audio passing through SE is effectively 'shifted in time' to compensate for the latency of the plugin. This is normal. Live does this well. It is as expected.
The stuttering effect in SE is synced to Live's transport. But for the stutter to stay in time it's 'syncing' actually has to be shifted by the same amount that the audio is shifted.
Here is the problem. Live does not do this. The result: SE will cut off the front of your audio and it will also be out of time with other tracks.

Typically the problem is only obvious if more than one plugin is put in front of a 'stutter' type plugin (because the more plugins, the more latency you get, the more the audio is out of time with the stutter). But in some cases like CamelSpace and (I suspect) SE, the plugin's own latency is enough to spoil the timing.

How much SE is affected by this problem depends on how much latency it has and/or on whether you put any other third party plugins in front of it.

Changing your buffer size in preferences will have an impact on how much you hear the problem.
Thank you. After you posted this, I was sceptical, but I went and did some research, and spent literally hours trying different options. I compared it to Cubase 5 and Reaper, both of which have the timing spot-on accurate. You're absolutely correct. Ableton live 8.2 cannot get the timing right. I've tried with PDC on/off, i've tried with Strict PDC on/off (options.txt), i've tried changing my buffer/sample rates up and down, I've tried disabling all sends and turning off monitoring - none of which gets the timing 100% accurate. I really do now feel that I cannot trust Ableton Live to make sure my mixes are 100% in sync, and this is a major issue for me.

I found lots of posts about delay compensation/syncing, but no official replies. Ableton - is this a known issue and is it being fixed? OR, am I missing something here or doing something wrong?

Delie
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Location: Wiltshire, UK

Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Delie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:26 pm

Update - just seen the official Ableton response on this issue in another post:
Hi Folks,

just wanted to chime in and confirm a few things, so you don't have to waste too much studio time discussing technical speculations or checking test scenarios to find out what exactly happens in Live and what not - you're right in stating that it is our job to explain this!

In short: Live's Plugin Delay Compensation compensates the audio.

What it does not, is compensating automation or what the Live GUI is showing (moving meters etc.), just as we always stated.

Even more important for this thread: timing depending plugins like camelspace or beatrepeat poll the transport timing information from the host to work correctly in time. In Live's case, as well with some other hosts, all plugins get the same global timing and normally this is just fine, of course - but as soon as such a timing depending plugin sits behind another plugin that causes latency, it would need its own special timing information that incorporates also the latency that gets introduced before it receives its data. But as i mentioned: Live does not offer this feature yet, just as it does not offer automation compensation - and both are pretty huge points on the feature wishlist.

Therefore ninox_rufa is pretty spot on in the descriptions he posted in this thread and we also confirmed this to him via support emails months ago.
If it would have been a bug, i'm pretty sure we would have addressed it by now during the quality initiative.
But unfortunately it is not something that is broken but actually a wish for new features based on the basic PDC (a. compensating automations, b. compensating host timing information based on where the plugin sits, c. GUI compensation) which cannot be hacked together in a few hours or days.

Nevertheless, we already said we will address these feature wishes and this statement still holds true.
But as always with Ableton products - we can't make any promises or announcements regarding the timeframe for this. Sorry for this.

What also already has been said is that as long as those delay compensation features are missing, we have to work on the manual in order to explain the situation better as it is confusing to the customer right now. And this came personally from the man who takes care of the manual, so we can trust this statement (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=129443).

I hope this clears up the confusion a bit. We really don't want to hide facts or information about such things and if there are further technical questions regarding this topic, feel free to contact support@ableton.com anytime for an answer, as it is hard to keep track of all the posts in the forum.

Cheers,
Dom
Thanks for investigating all of this ninox_rufa, nice to get some official response on this and it's nice to know it's something they're considering putting in to a future version, even if it isn't the answer I was looking for.

FYI: The other topic i was referring to is here: http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157048
The official Ableton response is on page 9 of that topic: http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 9#p1247289

Auton
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Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:36 pm

Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by Auton » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:52 am

Thanks, that clears things up i guess.

DjDiabolik
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:26 am

Re: Ableton + Stutter edit = buggy

Post by DjDiabolik » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:54 am

outershpongolia wrote:
Sunsetter wrote:Stutter Edit CAN be automated. Not in the traditional sense og drawing lines of automation but by using a MIDI track that is armed and drawing in the notes.
and I supposed you can draw in the pitch bend and mod wheel automation as well but people want to really get in there and automate all the parameters available..

I'd say they didn't want to sort out how mapping/automation would work when your switching gestures and what not
If you play with the plug-in, the midi trigger approach makes sense ... it's really quite nice
BUT! having an unresolved issue that screws up your output, makes this plug-in useless other than live play (unless of course you bounce the audio out somehow, but still)

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