why is this brand new powerbook useless?

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:47 am

Adam if it's the only audio application on your laptop, then how do you know it's Live that's to blame? or the powerbook?

You mentioned DP, did you try installing DP, and seeing if DP had the same kind of problems? At least then you would know it's not Live VS the powerbook, rather it's probably the machine, or a bad instal of the OS?

Do you have any Audio Units or VST's installed? There is some talk about third party plugs bringing down Live, even when they're not being used!? so it's worth removing all plugs, and testing. This kind of problem really sounds like some third party plug messing with Live.....

Did you try something besides the built in audio? At least try it with your USB/firewire card before giving up the ghost.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:53 am

Machinesworking wrote:Adam if it's the only audio application on your laptop, then how do you know it's Live that's to blame? or the powerbook?

You mentioned DP, did you try installing DP, and seeing if DP had the same kind of problems? At least then you would know it's not Live VS the powerbook, rather it's probably the machine, or a bad instal of the OS?

Do you have any Audio Units or VST's installed? There is some talk about third party plugs bringing down Live, even when they're not being used!? so it's worth removing all plugs, and testing. This kind of problem really sounds like some third party plug messing with Live.....

Did you try something besides the built in audio? At least try it with your USB/firewire card before giving up the ghost.

i don't know whether its live or the powerbook. but considering i bought a powerbook for live, does it really matter?

i haven't installed DP, i don't own it yet.
the problem was exhibited on the stock installation of the OS, and also upon reinstallation of the OS, and subsequently upon upgrading the OS.
no 3rd party plugins used or even installed and it spikes/drops like crazy.
no i didnt try something besides the onboard sound, my usb card was accidentally left at a gig last week and i haven't gotten it back yet. Besides i figured the stock core audio would be good enough / better than the USB, especially considering i get the same issues at 3ms that i do at 43ms.

in all honesty, i spent 26 hours troubleshooting, reinstalling, tweaking, trashing, testing, reading, and all of it was to no avail. even after a good sleep, its got me emotionally exhausted to the point that i'm just ready to send the PB back on monday or tuesday. The only thing preventing me from doing that is me waiting on that magic support email from Ableton that says "hey, this is the problem". I think i'll give em till tuesday to do that. otherwise its going back and i'll try not to touch a mac with regards to Ableton for a long time, or at least until posts about CPU peaks in this part of the forum are gone. I'm kind of upset with myself that i didn't research this section of the forum before i purchased, but now seeing so many people with the same problem on Macs (though not as extreme as my problem) i regret the purchase and i should definitely just stick with AMD and find away for this development that doesn't require Unix. I don't blame ableton or apple or anyone but myself, for making an uneducated purchase.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:20 am

AdamJay wrote:I don't blame ableton or apple or anyone but myself, for making an uneducated purchase.

The thing is I run Live 4 on a dual Gig G4 and a 800mhz powerbook with no problems, so it's sort of odd to me that a machine that should perform twice as fast as my powerbook would have spikes like what you describe. Honestly most of the complaints on here seem to be from people who've reached the limits of their CPU.
I'm not sure if you're willing to do this, but it wouldn't be that hard to save a song that spikes the hell out of the CPU onto a CD, take it into a mac store, and try playing it on the same machine, thus finding out whether you received a bunk powerbook, or it's a flaw in the whole line.

AFA mac+Live=bad, besides the CPU price thing, I don't think you've done the research to decide that. Of course you can for personal reasons.....

I decided that windows was still a pile of crap after trying to instal M-Audio Quattro drivers in XP for 8 hours on a brand new Dell laptop, then again for five on a homemade desktop, (with the help of a friend who works as an XP expert at a Dental firm no less ). I pretty much ranted on forums about how lame XP was for months, but now I realize it might just have been the driver for the Quattro? XP might just react badly to a driver that's poorly written.... and it seems that people have little or no problem with other audio devices.

Sounds like you received a bunk powerbook, It's one of the reasons I'm wary of purchasing online. It's too hard to have it serviced or return it. I just print out a copy of the sales page for whatever item I want to buy and force some local store to sell it to me for that price.

Have you tried calling M-Audio for tech support?

I have an old copy of DP lying around I'm about to update, kind of miss it. I guess I'm one of those people who doesn't feel comfortable using just one App.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:11 am

why would i call m-audio for support?
i'm not using an m-audio device.
i've emailed ableton my log file and i'm awaiting their reply.

i wouldn't have bought it online, but the local apple store didn't have them in stock and didn't know when they would. So when you can't buy direct from the manufacturer, you go online where you don't have to pay tax and thats that.

the whole experience pissed me off so much that at this point i'm just jaded and want to be done with it all. yea i could have it replaced by macmall, but what are the odds i get another bunk powerbook? then i have to replace it. nah, fuck that i'm just getting a refund and thats that.
and who's to say this powerbook is bunk, when other folks on this forum are getting random spikes for no reason.

i'm not saying that mac+Live=bad, but now that i've searched the bugs&problems section a bit more, i must say i see more mac issues than pc issues. right now i don't need headaches, and this whole ordeal has been the biggest headache i've had in quite a while. i guess its just bad timing. when yer having a bad month and you think what else could possibly go wrong and then it all falls apart.

i guess I'd just rather be pissed and without a powerbook than frustrated and with a powerbook.

thank you guys for trying to help me out, i wish the problem would have been solved but hell, i'm cursed hehe.

MarkH · Post by **MarkH** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:16 am

Adam - Sorry to hear it didn't work out. Personally I think you're better off on the AMD, but I know how much it sucks to look forward to something only to be completely let down.

Zky · Post by **Zky** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:04 pm

I been a windows user since long time ago,,with no probs with ableton since version 1.0 always on sony laptops running Digigram audio interfaces..

then 6 months ago I get the pbook..and I remember when I just take it "out of the box" and install ableton with no other audio app and no other single thing... with 512mg ram and 1.33ghz ..

I couldn't run any of my past projects done in the sony laptop,,and also I remember very clear live's cpu jumping like crazy even when ableton was not running,,,besides this any of my digigram´s audio interface could be used by the pbook..just pops and cracks on the sound

so after a very frustating days of trying to make this pbook work,,and almost about to sell it to a friend, I did the optimization process from Jim Bates..yes I know some of u thing is's crap..but I did it just as the last chance,,

and upgrade my ram to 1024 gb

after that ableton´s cpu stop jumping...so I went deeper on the process,,did it again with some extra tips..and now I can use the machine for live performance as I expected to..ok,,it is maybe no so fast as a centrino 1.8 or a amd.. but is really stable on the stage and I can pretty decent projects on it..using vst and au devices like korg,novation etc..
by the way..my os still 10.3.6, don´t want to upgrade until I really need it

bottom line,, ableton indeed ned mac optimization, altivec instruccions and better cpu performance.. but u can also run ableton in a well tuned mac, specially above 1 Ghz / 1gb ram..

of course for Adam must be really hard time now.. but also seems that something is wrong with that machine,, maybe the os version?? wich one u have there Adam?

here in berlin most of the people doing serious live performances are using macs.. yes..many of them still on os9 but there is a increase number of people migrating to osX running ableton

some people here in the forum said that the optimization process don´t do a shit.. all I can said is that it works for me and now my pbook is working..

commuter · Post by **commuter** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:58 pm

After reading all the post, something come to my mind.......
Adam, the only difference with the new powerbook line is the "sudden motion sensor" technology...I've read in several places that this function may cause problems with Video recording due to vibrations...maybe i'm wrong , but you could try to deactivate this and see whatt happen,
here's the link to apple site that explains the problem.....
Maybe i'm telling bullshits, but it's worth to try it..
Sorry for my crappyt english...

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300724

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:29 pm

commuter, thanks for that tip.
it would make sense that that would be effecting performance.
i've disabled it but unfortunately the powerbook still has the same problems.

commuter · Post by **commuter** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:47 pm

too bad...
I really don't understand what happen with this Mac..
BTW, did you try you own performance test with it, or is it completely unuseable ?

commuter · Post by **commuter** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:52 pm

I wanted to buy a 12" powerbook myself because of the price drop..but now, i think i'll avoid Apple till the G5 pb is out ...

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:15 pm

commuter wrote:
too bad...
I really don't understand what happen with this Mac..
BTW, did you try you own performance test with it, or is it completely unuseable ?

the performance test runs fine and scores a 48%.
so i think to myself, perhaps its just my live set .als that is having the problems. so i start a new live set and rebuild it with those same sounds and it happens again. its some sort of caching problem i think, as it only happens when very long .wav's are used (4 minutes and up)

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:04 pm

AdamJay wrote: so i start a new live set and rebuild it with those same sounds and it happens again. its some sort of caching problem i think, as it only happens when very long .wav's are used (4 minutes and up)

That's odd? again I do that all the time, though I have a Gig of memory in my 800mhz. I'll bet you have the stock 512 huh? RAM could be the key here. No audio application uses solely the hard drive for clips, and Live could assign a larger, or permanent chunk of RAM to longer clips......
Seems to me that a lot of people reporting dropouts are using 512mb RAM?

why would i call m-audio for support?
i'm not using an m-audio device.

M-Audio are phone tech support for Ableton in North America Adam, that's why. Personally I call 99% of the time when I have a major problem just to avoid the inevitable reply, " Did you repair permissions? ", when you explicitly stated that you did in your initial email.

I guess I'm a little guilty of being a bit selfish in my attempts to help you Adam. I have thought about selling my dual Gig tower and powerbook, and buying the 1.5. I wouldn't lose too much power CPU wise in Logic, ( a dual machine in logic seems to about the equivalent of a 1.6 to 1.7, and considering I rarely max CPU in Logic.. ), it wouldn't really cost me anything but a little time, and considering Live doesn't use dual CPUs, it should run better on it? My singer has a 1 Ghz powerbook, so if I needed raw cpu for more soft synths than the 1.5 offers, we could just buy her a USB/firewire soundcard. Also I'm about to update my copy of DP, so you could have been my beta tester!

The positive note would be that if in fact it is due to the powerbook, getting another dud would be highly unlikely, though you sound like you've already decided against that. Hardware wise Apple still are rated highest in reliability, ( though if in fact you are right, and it is hardware, then that isn't any comfort, sorry ) . A good friend of mine works as a beta hardware tester for Apple, they really work the crap out of those things before they start mass producing them.

Have you tried running Activity Monitor ( in the Utilities folder in Applications )while messing with Ableton and getting spikes? Since Live isn't full on crashing it's harder to diagnose from the crash log, but Activity Monitor might show you what's happening?

sent my log.txt file to ableton support, waiting for their reply

I was going to get you to locate your crash log, but it seems like you already know about it.

I hope this is of some help? At least now you know whom to call for tech support for Live?

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:27 pm

i never had issues on my old 867mhz pb with 640mb of ram. i would think 512MB is enough. activity monitor says i still have 140MB Free. and to be frank, if i need more than 512MB to just run 8 tracks of audio and that is a system requirement - then i certainly need to send this machine back.

i didn't know m-audio did phone support for ableton. thats good to know.
considering i'm waiting on another reply from Christian Klein @ Ableton support, and i've done about everything i can think of, i doubt a call to m-audio would bring fruitful results. (plus i know a couple guys that work m-audio support for their hardware, and they tell me most of its scripted)

activity monitor will show Live at about 10% over what the live cpu meter says. when there are drop outs, theres no change in activity monitor. and there are no additional processes running.

Zky · Post by **Zky** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:35 pm

the performance test runs fine and scores a 48%.
so i think to myself, perhaps its just my live set .als that is having the problems. so i start a new live set and rebuild it with those same sounds and it happens again. its some sort of caching problem i think, as it only happens when very long .wav's are used (4 minutes and up)[/quote]

mmm.. my live set include some large files as well,,around 5-6 min each along with all the loops etc..

I strongly recommend to do an optimization process..I mean,,after that what else?..at least if the pbook still the same then u will be totally sure that there is something wrong with that machine

of course..upgrading to 1gb ram it's critical on mac

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:54 pm

well i've done some optimization things.
the last OS install was free of any unneeded softwares, i've ran ONYX, shadow killer, etc., permissions repaired endless times.

just tested it again
getting glitches with just 6 stereo tracks, no fx, and the cpu meter only reads 9%. something is definitely wrong with this PB.

and once again, more than 512MB should not be necessary.
i'm not even running any plugins.