More MIDI problems, synced up to Electribes

[deharvey2002]

Hi all

I'm having terrible MIDI timing issues when I use MIDI tracks in Ableton to sequence my Electribes and MS2000.

I have a simple Edirol UM1S MIDI interface. MIDI out goes, in this order, In to the ER1, Thru to the In on my ES1, Thru to the IN on my MS 2000. I have a SY85 as a MIDI controller keyboard with the Out going to the IN of the Edirol.

Even the ER1 which is first in the chain, if I program 16th beat hihats I can hear the Timing is not dead on, it skips a little and after a while of triggering different scenes it gets worse.

In Ableton Preferences I have set the Edirol Input - TRACK-On; SYNC-Off; REMOTE-On

On the Edirol Output - TRACK-On; SYNC-On; REMOTE-Off

I have played with the MIDI offset and yes I checked that I had selected the Edirol, but I could not hear any offset occuring.
Delay Compensation doesnt seem to do anything either.

My PC is a Athlon 2500+; 1Gb Ram; Soundmax on board sound chip. (I recently had a Emu 1820, same problem.

Hope someone can help

Thanks

[deharvey2002]

Have I missed some glaringly obvious setting? Feel free to shout and laugh if so but I dont think I have. Any assistance would really be appreciated.

Its a shame cos it should be a revolutionary piece of software, but I cant use it if the timings all off

[WaveRider]

Have I missed some glaringly obvious setting? Feel free to shout and laugh if so but I dont think I have. Any assistance would really be appreciated.

Its a shame cos it should be a revolutionary piece of software, but I cant use it if the timings all off

yeah if only Ableton Live had good midi clock and midi timing it would be a nice tool to make music with external gear


they said themselves that their midi timing clock output is innacurate on the PC.

...but in your case, if you send midi note data to your drum machine you do not have to send a clock too (unless you have bpm synced fx) that alone may be the problem it is best to avoid to use notes and clocks on the same midi connexion.

[deharvey2002]

Well yeah I'm sending clock from ableton to the electribes cos they got bpm sync delay, and synced motion sequencer. Without clock half the cool features of the elctribes are unusable. Ive tried switching off clock out from ableton as a test but I didnt notice any improvement.

Well thats pretty depressin then I cant use Ableton as a MIDI sequencer. Well then ableton is useless to me. I feel like crying. Surely in terms of application developement MIDI functionality is pretty simple programming compared to developing audio functionality. MIDI Clock is a straightforward affair isnt it.

Please can an ableton bod please please please say that they can sort this out. I wanted to love this program, it sounded like the answer I been waiting for for years. If not, then the shop can take it back. 'kin useless to me.

I will hold off if anyone has any work around suggestions I can try out

[WaveRider]

I will hold off if anyone has any work around suggestions I can try out

you maybe can use Live slaved to you drum machine instead?

[deharvey2002]

thanks Waverider. Ive wiped my computer and I'm checking it out on the clean install. All I have installed is the motherboard and printer drivers, my Emu 1820 and Ableton. Seems to be a lot tighter, odd notes seem to clip but not as bad as before. As I reinstall my other software I'm gonna check ableton each time to see if other software affects it. fingers crossed.

If it all goes to s@!t again then I'll try your suggestion.

[dtm]

Just want a way to use live as a master for my external gear. Using external gear as the clock source introduces so many other delay / latency issues that I dont want to go there. Tried every config and combination of live and its midi settings, and I think its just another one of those issues where developers overlook simple things set out in the midi standards.

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39382

interesting read from elektron...



Synchronization of Machinedrum to other sequencers
Using MIDI Timing Clock and MIDI Song Pointer Position

Experiences gathered by Elektron development team
Version 1.0 2005-06-14

* Slaving Machinedrum to software sequencers *

Machinedrum
Settings used: Global Slot-Sync-Tempo In External
Global Slot-Sync-Ctrl In On

Version tested: 1.29b

Protools
Works fine.
Settings used: Enable MIDI Beat Clock to MIDI port.
Version tested: Protools LE 4.7 OS X

Cubase
Limited functionality
Settings used: Sync Setup-Send MIDI Clock, select MIDI port.
Version tested: Cubase SX 2.2.0.39 OS X
Comments: When changing position while in play mode synchronization is
lost. If you press stop before changing position no problems arise.
Code sequence when changing position while playing:
... Clock - Continue - Clock - Clock - Stop - SPP - Clock ...

Live
Limited functionality
Settings used: MIDI/Sync-Output, select port.
Version tested: Live 4.1.4 OS X
Comments: When starting from a position other then the beginning of
the song the slave still starts from the beginning of the song.
This happens becourse Live sends SPP - Start - Clock when changing
song position.

Logic
Works fine.
Settings used: Synchronization-Transmit MIDI Clock, select MIDI port.
Version tested: Logic Pro 6.4.3 OS X

Tracktion
Limited functionality
Settings used: Send MIDI Clock.
Version tested: 2.0.1.4 Windows XP
Comments: SPP is not sent when changing position while playing.
Two conflicting SPP are sent when looping.
Stop is never sent.



* Slaving software sequencers to Machinedrum *

Machinedrum
Settings used: Global Slot-Sync-Tempo Out On
Global Slot-Sync-Ctrl Out On
Version tested: 1.29b

Protools
Not possible to slave to MIDI Timing Clock.
Version tested: Protools LE 4.7 OS X

Cubase
Not possible to slave to MIDI Timing Clock.
Version tested: Cubase SX 2.2.0.39 OS X

Live
Limited functionality.
Settings used: MIDI/Sync-Input select MIDI Port, MIDI/Sync-Input
select MIDI Clock.
Version tested: Live 4.1.4 OS X
Comments: Always starts from the beginning of the song.
Note: Live in unable to control another computer running Live using
MIDI Clock and SPP.

Logic
Works fine.
Settings used: Select MIDI Clock Sync.
Version tested: Logic Pro 6.4.3 OS X

Cubase
Not possible to slave to MIDI Timing Clock.
Version tested: Cubase SX 2.2.0.39 OS X



* Machinedrum sending MIDI Timing Clock while sequencer not running *

To give external synchronized gear the possibility to stay in sync
between songs and while in Stop or Pause Machinedrum sends MIDI Timing
Clock continuously even when not in play mode. This allows for tempo
synced LFO's and Delays to stay in sync.


* Machinedrum Fallback when in External Sync *

When Machinedrum is in External sync and receiving MIDI Timing Clock
and the stream stops a fallback to internal sync will happen after 10
seconds. If the external MIDI Timing Clocks restarts automatic
switchback is provided. The fallback enables operation of Machinedrum
with Internal clock without the need to change the global setting in
case of a sudden loss of sync.


* Machinedrum has separate control for Sync-Tempo and Sync-Ctrl *

Machinedrum provides separate switches for sending and receiving MIDI
Timing Clocks and Ctrl (Start/Continue/Stop/SPP). This can be useful in
several situations.

Tempo in - Ext. Ctrl in - Off.
- Synchronize tempo with use of MIDI Timing Clocks while using Pattern
Trigs to control Start/Stop of patterns.
- Synchronize LFO's and the Rhythm Echo while Machinedrum is used as a
sound module.

Tempo in - Int. Ctrl in - On.
- Slaving to a static and exact tempo, but the master units send a
jittery clock. Using internal tempo keeps retrigs, tempo synced LFO's
and The Rhythm Echo tight.

Tempo out - On. Ctrl out - Off.
- Use Machinedrum as a master clock for other devises but not used to
control transport for all units.

Tempo out - Off. Ctrl out - On.
- No real use.


* Quotes from 'The Complete MIDI 1.0 Detailed Specifications' *
Document version 96.1

TIMING CLOCK:
"Clock-based MIDI systems are synchronized with this message, which is
sent at a rate of 24 notes per quarter note. If Timing Clocks (F8H)
are sent during idle time they should be sent at the current tempo
setting of the transmitter even while it is not playing"
START:
"This message commands all receivers which are slaved to incoming
Real Time messages (MIDI Sync mode) to start at the beginning of the
song or sequence."
CONTINUE:
"A sequencer will continue from its current location upon receipt of
the next Timing Clock (F8H)".
STOP:
"Playback in a slaved receiver should stop immediately."
MIDI Song Pointer Position (SPP):
"A sequencer's Song Position (SP) is the number of MIDI beats
(1 beat = 6 MIDI clocks) that have elapsed from the start of the song
and is used to begin playback of a sequence from a position other than
the beginning of the song."

"...the receipt of a Start (FAH) or Continue (FBH) message does not
start the sequencer until the next Timing Clock/F8H) is received."
"The Start message (FAH), is treated by MIDI as if it were a command
comprised of a Song Position Pointer of value 0 plus a continue
message (FBH)."
"...the smallest Song Position change is 6 MIDI Clocks, or 1/16 note."

Please discuss this document on elektron-users.com. We would like this
document as a starting point for a community based pool of experience,
but we can not keep the docuemtn updated ourselves for all possible
sequencers and scenarios.

[Von Hoof]

see this related thread on using Live as slave (139 posts, some unsatisfactory workarounds suggested, may be of help)

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

sample movie at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ1vbob9_-s

Von Hoof

[Danny Detox]

So i guess 5.2 hasnt fixed the Midi Sync issues then

Sulky rant // Perhaps they could put off developing for new opperating systems and fix the stuff we already paid for. // end of sulky rant.