Problem : Live 6 Sync Hardware

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Architect
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Re: so what's your point?

Post by Architect » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:53 am

dbone wrote:Jeez, that's GREAT! Hey everyone! Forget all about it! It's working fine for Architect on his MPC!! Nothing more to see here - move along!
Don't be an ass... I was merely sharing my observation in one instance of me trying to synchronize external hardware in Live 6. I wasn't trying to imply there ISN'T a problem I mean that seems pretty obvious so far from hearing about other peoples experiences.
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Amaury
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Re: "no single reason for midi clock problems"

Post by Amaury » Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:38 am

dbone wrote:Wow... Forwarded Eddie's solution and proof that the problem CAN be isolated to Live. Another canned response (shocking, I know) but they DO acknowledge there's a problem.


There's no single reason for midi clock problems (we would have fixed
this long ago if it would be the case), on a lot of systems it works, on
other systems not and there are many causes for this ranging from driver
problems, usb communictation issues etc.

Best,
Dom Wilms
Hi,

First of all, I'll remind you what is written at the bottom of the mail you just quoted:

"Ableton does not authorize any publication of the content of this e-mail without the permission of the author. "

It is not such a big deal, but it is a rule. Others could wonder if you quoted the whole thing, or post it out of context etc..

As for the MIDI sync, of course we acknowledge there is a problem, for some people, with some configurations. Strange enough, there are some people, and some hardware, that don't have a problem. Yes they exist.

We do take the issue very seriously, but one should not expect a 'fix' overnight, as it is no 'bug' to correct, but rather find were the fault lies in each case. Bypassing Live as Eddy did shows one thing: the Live/driver relation is wrong. It does not mean it is only Live.

I'm not saying Live does not have a problem, I'm saying that the problem is an addition of different variables. For instance, most people I know with RME interfaces don't have a problem.

All that can help us in the jungle of zillions of different configurations, is a clear description of gear, procedures, and problems. 'Canned' reports like 'it does not work, but my gear is good,and it works with such or such other software' don't do any good either, unfortunately.

We are a small company, still, and there are many things to do and solve, so please understand that this takes time to study.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

justin
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Post by justin » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:19 am

after a very busy time, i have managed to resolve my midi sync issues...

for me the problem lies in the remote SL. i have it setup in automap mode, which i suspect eats up a substantial amount of USB bandwidth... on investigating the problem, i realised there are ways to split the communication channels of the remote SL to different ports (RTFM!)... this makes perfect sense.

unfortunately i dont have time to work out exactly how to set the SL to be in automap mode and send /receive MIDI notes / controllers / midi clock. But it's all explained (and written quite badly) in the remote SL manual, where there are different configurations for different studio setups...

currently i am successfully using the midiman USB 2x2 from m-audio. never thought i'd find myself saying this about that company! but the trusty little green box sends STEADY midi clock to the korg electribe!

i appreciate this may not resolve everyone's problems, but it does confirm Amaury previous post.

j

Architect
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Post by Architect » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:51 pm

I'll do some more testing with my other external midi gear synced to Live 6.0.3 to see if my results are consistent. I'll send my results to ableton support hopefully that can help in trying to resolve this issue.

I'll have access to an MPC 60 next week that I can test with although I assume I should get the same results as with my MPC 2k. I have a bunch of keyboards and modules that I can hookup to Live as well to test. Ableton support is good and I'm sure at some point we will find a resolution if we all work together to try and fix this...
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dbone
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Post by dbone » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:16 pm

...I'll remind you what is written at the bottom of the mail you just quoted:

"Ableton does not authorize any publication of the content of this e-mail without the permission of the author. "

It is not such a big deal, but it is a rule. Others could wonder if you quoted the whole thing, or post it out of context etc..
Hi Amaury,

Certainly didn't mean to troll or step out of bounds by posting the support info. I didn't realize this would constitute a problem of this sort. I'll refrain from doing so in the future.

As for the MIDI sync, of course we acknowledge there is a problem, for some people, with some configurations. Strange enough, there are some people, and some hardware, that don't have a problem. Yes they exist.

We do take the issue very seriously, but one should not expect a 'fix' overnight, as it is no 'bug' to correct, but rather find were the fault lies in each case. Bypassing Live as Eddy did shows one thing: the Live/driver relation is wrong. It does not mean it is only Live.

<snip>

We are a small company, still, and there are many things to do and solve, so please understand that this takes time to study.
And again - before I go any further, let me says that I've bought and used Live for many years because I LOVE the product and I truly respect the people behind it. Of course, nothing is perfect and from time to time, there will be bumps in the road, a little frustration and constructive criticism. I hope what I put forward can be seen in context.

It's completely understandable that resources are limited and that with all the variables it make things difficult to isolate - no problem there. I would simply suggest that when good info comes in from knowledgeable users who have taken time to assist, that Ableton continues to leverage these efforts and make the most out of them. The response I posted from Support shocked me because it seemed to indicate that this issue was off the table. I'm sure you can understand how this would be a serious concern for those of us who are affected and forced to work outside our comfort zone.

That said, I'm REALLY grateful to hear that it is acknowledged and is being looked at. You guys continue to have my confidence an support.


Best,

Dylan

dbone
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Re: so what's your point?

Post by dbone » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:36 pm

Architect wrote:
dbone wrote:Jeez, that's GREAT! Hey everyone! Forget all about it! It's working fine for Architect on his MPC!! Nothing more to see here - move along!
Don't be an ass... I was merely sharing my observation in one instance of me trying to synchronize external hardware in Live 6. I wasn't trying to imply there ISN'T a problem I mean that seems pretty obvious so far from hearing about other peoples experiences.
As far as this goes, I did not see any previous posts from you in this thread. From my perspective, you simply hopped in at a moment where the shiyat hit the fan and said "well it works for me..." which isn't particularly constructive, IMHO.

Nothing personal.

Architect
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Post by Architect » Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:13 pm

I didn't take it personal... We are all scratching our heads on this issue and your right I didn't provide a detailed analysis on the problem but I will when I get the chance as I stated I only performed basic testing so far. Live is just as important to me as anyone else on this board so I should be able to chime in at any point in the discussion...I chose to chime in only when I performed a bit of testing myself. I have confidence that we will figure out a solution with everyone's brains focusing on it!
Dope Hip-Hop Production
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Live 6.07/FL Studio 7 Producer Edition/Recycle/Battery 3/Kontakt 2/Motif ES6/Yamaha EX5/Akai MPC 2500/NI KORE Controller/2x Technic 1200s

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:42 am

Hi all,

@dbone, first it is not a BIG deal to quote the support answer, but better to avoid doing it to not add to the confusion. Posting what you understood of it is OK.

I guess my colleague's answer comes from someone who answers 100 mails a day plus a fair amount of phone calls, and was not essentially aware of the best thing to say at this time for that issue. I'm talking on his name so I may be wrong. but for sure it is quite embarassing not being able to answer and research on such issues quicker, but again we are quite small. In these case it is very possible that you receive an answer that seems easy, but things are worked on in the background.

that said, it IS very usefull that our users, you, remind us, even if sometimes a bit rudly, about the issues and priorities. A certain level of communication is essential to us. So thanks for discussing and bringing problems in the foreground.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

Architect
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Post by Architect » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:22 pm

Thanks Amaury for keeping us posted and keeping track of this issue.
Dope Hip-Hop Production
http://www.myspace.com/infinitarchitect
Live 6.07/FL Studio 7 Producer Edition/Recycle/Battery 3/Kontakt 2/Motif ES6/Yamaha EX5/Akai MPC 2500/NI KORE Controller/2x Technic 1200s

taximouse
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EXT sync - update?

Post by taximouse » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:01 am

Hi there,

I've been on tour and away from the internet. Curious what the status is on the EXT sync bug?

This last month I've been using Live every day in front of an audience and I think have a very good handle now on when it crashes.

To recap: Live crashes when EXT sync is on and I open another set.

My workaround - in between every song, I have to do this, in exactly the right order:

- stop external drum machine
- turn EXT off with the mouse (because it is not midi mappable)
- open new set (with a foot controller and applescript)
- turn EXT on with the mouse
- start external drum machine

It was REALLY a problem. I had to banter with the audience, while leaning over to the computer to turn EXT on and off. Really interrupted my flow. Where possible, I do two songs using the same set so as to have at least a couple moments in my performance where I can go right from one song into another. I'm lucky that Imogen Heap's audiences are quite forgiving.

Another solution would be for Live to do a better job of syncing external gear, then I wouldn't need to use a drum machine or the EXT button at all!!
I'm only using the external drum machine so that all my devices are reliably synced.

I'm very keen to see a fix of this problem. It feels very unprofessional in comparison to everything else I love about Live.

Thank you,

Zoe Keating (aka taximouse)
MacBook Pro 2.93 Ghz, early 2009, 4GB RAM
OS 10.5.8
Live 8.1.4
Motu Ultralite + FCB1010 + SooperLooper + cello


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dbone
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Post by dbone » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:25 pm

For those that haven't already, you might want to take a look at the following thread. Although it does not deal with MIDI clock specifically, there seem to be some common themes here and a few interesting ideas.

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52985

There seems to be an article in the Feb 07 issue of Sound On Sound that has an explanation and solution for some MIDI timing issues. I am pretty sure they do not apply to MIDI clock sync/drift issues, but I have not been able to read the whole thing yet - "subscription required". ...might be worth the eSub just for that article alone!!

Amaury
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Re: EXT sync - update?

Post by Amaury » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:55 pm

taximouse wrote:Hi there,

I've been on tour and away from the internet. Curious what the status is on the EXT sync bug?

This last month I've been using Live every day in front of an audience and I think have a very good handle now on when it crashes.

To recap: Live crashes when EXT sync is on and I open another set.

My workaround - in between every song, I have to do this, in exactly the right order:

- stop external drum machine
- turn EXT off with the mouse (because it is not midi mappable)
- open new set (with a foot controller and applescript)
- turn EXT on with the mouse
- start external drum machine

It was REALLY a problem. I had to banter with the audience, while leaning over to the computer to turn EXT on and off. Really interrupted my flow. Where possible, I do two songs using the same set so as to have at least a couple moments in my performance where I can go right from one song into another. I'm lucky that Imogen Heap's audiences are quite forgiving.

Another solution would be for Live to do a better job of syncing external gear, then I wouldn't need to use a drum machine or the EXT button at all!!
I'm only using the external drum machine so that all my devices are reliably synced.

I'm very keen to see a fix of this problem. It feels very unprofessional in comparison to everything else I love about Live.

Thank you,

Zoe Keating (aka taximouse)
Hello,

There is a bug that got fixed in the latest update, Live 6.0.5:

"Added a particular effect device while Live is running as MIDI clock
slave on a multi core/processor computer could lead to a crash. "

I wonder if that fixes your precise case. Can you try it and report back to me?

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

stjohn
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Post by stjohn » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:38 am

hi... ive been following through the posts here and i just wanted to add my situation.

thanks Amaury for all your help so far :)

anyway... when syncing 2 machines (ESX and Machinedrum) without Live, the fit perfectly.. but when i try to utilise Live as a slave using the following series:

MachineDrum :: MIDI out - > MIDI in :: Electribe ESX
Electribe ESX :: MIDI Thru - > Live 6.05 EXT i get a slight delay between each!!

This is is with some VSTs and compressors etc..
when i have a blank project the sync is ok. i dont want to send and receive MIDI messages really.. just get a tight sync with some loops and VSTs.

Another problem, is that when in EXT mode, Reaktor 5 Sequenced Synths do not sync either. When i tak EXT off they are fine. its a shame because if i could use all four elements in tandom, I would be a very happy camper!!

hope this helps somewhat and I look forward to a response!!

thanks
stjohn

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:25 pm

stjohn wrote:hi... ive been following through the posts here and i just wanted to add my situation.

thanks Amaury for all your help so far :)

anyway... when syncing 2 machines (ESX and Machinedrum) without Live, the fit perfectly.. but when i try to utilise Live as a slave using the following series:

MachineDrum :: MIDI out - > MIDI in :: Electribe ESX
Electribe ESX :: MIDI Thru - > Live 6.05 EXT i get a slight delay between each!!

This is is with some VSTs and compressors etc..
when i have a blank project the sync is ok. i dont want to send and receive MIDI messages really.. just get a tight sync with some loops and VSTs.

Another problem, is that when in EXT mode, Reaktor 5 Sequenced Synths do not sync either. When i tak EXT off they are fine. its a shame because if i could use all four elements in tandom, I would be a very happy camper!!

hope this helps somewhat and I look forward to a response!!

thanks
stjohn
Hi,

for your first issue, if you have a 'delay' problem in the sync, there is a 'MIDI clock sync delay' parameter in Live's MIDI tab or the Preferences. Can't you solve the issue by adjusting it?

Then, can you report back about the regularity of the sync? And give details about your setup, computer and sound/MIDI interface?

For your second problem: you say that if Live is in EXT mode, slave to the MIDI clock, Reaktor patches don't get the sync from the Live clock? Can you double check, and give me a detailed description?

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

stjohn
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Post by stjohn » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:17 pm

Hi Amaury, thanks for the quick reply..

1:

i have just gone to the machine today and it seems ok :oops:
sorry, i dont know why, but i tried it last night at it was not synced... but if i have any more problems in this area i will let you know

2:

They do sync but Reaktor falls behind. When I use a patch with an internal sequencer, and i begin to adjust the latency in Live to compensate for my hardware, reaktor becomes slightly delayed. when i solo reaktor and turn on the metronome, this indicates the same result.

I would like to note that this only begins to happens when im am above 50 - 60 % CPU usage, (using about 7 or 8 audio/midi tracks).


edit: forgot to mention im using an ESP 1010 soundcard, with buffer settings at 512 samples

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