MIDI delay recording

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samusaran
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Post by samusaran » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:47 am

can someone clear somethin up for me? this midi latency issue is just a problem with live 6, but 5.2 is fine? if so, would i be able to use 5.2 with my serial number, i just bought 6.. running 6.0.7 and having the same problems as you all have been describing, id much rather sacrifice some of 6's features and use 5.2 so i can avoid this BUG. i cant imagine anyone NOT wanting to hear what they are playing and just relying on the little clicks and taps your fingers make hitting the keys... wtf kind of logic is that?

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:35 am

samusaran wrote:can someone clear somethin up for me? this midi latency issue is just a problem with live 6, but 5.2 is fine? if so, would i be able to use 5.2 with my serial number, i just bought 6.. running 6.0.7 and having the same problems as you all have been describing, id much rather sacrifice some of 6's features and use 5.2 so i can avoid this BUG.
Hi,

the Live 6.0.x implementation is exactly the same as Live 5.2.2, there is no differnence. This thread started out of a mistake: there was once a bug, in a beta for 5.0.3 I think. It was fixed, and was never back. But the original poster thought it was back.
samusaran wrote:i cant imagine anyone NOT wanting to hear what they are playing and just relying on the little clicks and taps your fingers make hitting the keys... wtf kind of logic is that?
Well, then you ARE happy with the current implementation: the thinking is that you will record what you hear while you are recording. People on this thread are asking exactly for what you DON'T want.

As a general rule, and regardless of the implementation, the most important is to achieve the lowest latency possible, so a good sound card with low latency and also avoiding high latency plugins on the path of the track you are recording to (compressors, convolution devices) are the best bet.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

citrik
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Post by citrik » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:48 pm

Wow Amaury!!! I'm Shocked!

There is definitely an issue here that needs fixed.

If you use Live as your mixer, to record external synths that are clocked to midi everything is recorded late. Compensation for the sound card should not happen when the recoding is made but when the audio is played back. This happens with both Audio and Midi.

This behavior is counter to every other application out there Mac or PC.

If I record a 1 bar loop from a drum machine it is recorded with a delay of an apparently arbitrary amount (seems to be the soundcard's latency) when I bring in new loops it sounds like I'm trainwrecking on turntables. The beats do not line up.

I've had to throw away entire sessions because I didn't want to go back through 30-40 clips and re-time-align everything. Live changed the way people worked with timing of loops, Live meant you didn't have to think about it. Sadly if you are recording original material from a hardware studio you will definitely have to think about timing. You'll have to compensate by recording three bars of every loop and then shrinking the clip's loop to one bar and realigning the start point to compensate for this bug.

This only happens when monitoring is turned on. If monitoring is off it records normally. It's so frustrating that I have to have two channels for every track in a project. One to record with Monitor off and one to monitor the input from the synth. On the times I forget to do this wacko setup, I end up loosing my creative flow because I have to sit there and re-align everything I've recorded...

I'm not sure where all the talk of compensating for a plugin comes in, this happens with a channel that has no plugin! It would make sense to have this time space folding arrives where you want it mojo to occur if you have a plugin active on a channel, but this should be handled by delaying the playback not the recording.

Seriously I've been with Ableton since Version One. I love what you have done for my music and live performance, but this bug is causing people to jump ship.

Respectfully,

Gavin - Citrik
-CitrikSystems-
-minimaltechno-

tylenol
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Post by tylenol » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:17 am

citrik wrote:I'm not sure where all the talk of compensating for a plugin comes in
The talk about compensating for a plug in comes in because there are (at least) two issues here that in the history of this thread have often been confused, though I think basically everyone here is worrying only about one of them. One of them has to do with hardware synths (not having any, I've never tried to figure it out myself), but the other has to do with recording of midi for plug-in soft synths (I suppose it would affect hardware in that it would affect anything with latency). It is concerns about the second that Amaury was responding to above (I'm pretty sure), and is not what you are describing.

At this point this thread is so confusing it might be better nuked... :?

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:25 pm

So any news? What was decided? Is this going to be fixed or not?

We're going to need an outcome or decision eventually. Everyone is in limbo. Or do you still need more feedback from the users and to do your own testing?

It's not like the wheel is being reinvented or new technology has changed this issue or anything. Software companies have already had solutions for dealing with latency for years now so it has already been figured out long ago. Apparently Ableton is the only one that has a different philosophy when it comes to this.

nicogrubert
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Post by nicogrubert » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:28 pm

docjah wrote:Hi,

OK , here's the part I don't get.

I record MIDI into live , monitor on playing on 1,2,3,4 etc.

When I look at the Midi Data , it looks to be off the marks ( different than other DAW's I've worked with) , but supposedly plays correctly.
[...]
same problem here if I record MIDI data into live from my machinedrum.

Lazy Eyes
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Post by Lazy Eyes » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:28 pm

Yeah, i'm dealing with the same issues right now..

Live keeps shifting the notes ahead. So when i played it at 2.2 it recorded it at 1.4.4 or so..

I don't have any delay compensation turned and it does the same thing with monitoring auto, off, or in..

it's like reversed latency, u always drum ahead.. And that's no latency issue that's just live recording the midi notes wrong!!! U simply just can't get it right.. i tried and tried, but the programs keep messing it up and shifting the notes ahead..

This really fucks up the whole idea of working with live..

Lazy Eyes
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Post by Lazy Eyes » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:37 pm

To add something, it doesn't record midi normally when monitoring is off, too..

it still keeps shifting it, so that it hits before the beat..

So when you hit it today, it will be recorded like yesterday

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:55 am

This thread really fucks up the whole idea of reality.

I find it very confusing

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:11 am

longjohns wrote:This thread really fucks up the whole idea of reality.

I find it very confusing
Image

Nod
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Post by Nod » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:08 pm

icedsushi wrote:So any news? What was decided? Is this going to be fixed or not? We're going to need an outcome or decision eventually. Everyone is in limbo. Or do you still need more feedback from the users and to do your own testing? It's not like the wheel is being reinvented or new technology has changed this issue or anything. Software companies have already had solutions for dealing with latency for years now so it has already been figured out long ago. Apparently Ableton is the only one that has a different philosophy when it comes to this.
*bump* :wink:

Vertical
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Post by Vertical » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:37 pm

Nod wrote:
icedsushi wrote:So any news? What was decided? Is this going to be fixed or not? We're going to need an outcome or decision eventually. Everyone is in limbo. Or do you still need more feedback from the users and to do your own testing? It's not like the wheel is being reinvented or new technology has changed this issue or anything. Software companies have already had solutions for dealing with latency for years now so it has already been figured out long ago. Apparently Ableton is the only one that has a different philosophy when it comes to this.
*bump* :wink:
Anything news yet? I can't work with Live until this issue is resolved.

XenzSneekerz
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Post by XenzSneekerz » Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:26 pm

1. Compensate for audio latency first. (Use the driver error compensation lesson in Live)

2. Setup up a clip in a midi track 1 measure long looped with 4 short quarter notes.

3. Set the midi track to send out to the right port and channel of the midi device you are trying to trigger.

4. Set up your midi device with a short percussive sound. (Rim shot, Synth stab, etc…)

5. Set Audio Channel in Live to record the device using the quarter note midi loop. (Record a few bars)
6. Select the View menu at the top of live and make sure track delay is visible.

7. Zoom in on the audio clip in the audio track and read how many ms the quarter notes in the audio clip are delayed.

8. In the midi track put the ms value as a – value in the track delay box. (Example -43.5ms)

9. Record the midi loop again in the audio channel and zoom in on the sample to see if any more correction is needed.

10. Test all of your external devices/interfaces because they could have different values. Each device handles midi differently. Midi is a slow and old protocol that has never changed but it is the only universal communication for all of are wonderful toys.

11. Midi note messages and midi clock messages are 2 different things. To adjust midi clock set up your drum machine/synth with a percussive sound. Record/step input 4 quarter notes in a one bar loop.(make sure you double click the stop button in Live's main transport to resest midi clock for all devices)

12. I would make live the master midi clock. Start live and record the device in an audio channel for a few bars.

13. Zoom in on sample and read how may ms the quarter notes are delayed.

14. Open up live preferences and select the midi sync tab. Click the little triangle next to the output/port you are sending midi clock to. Input your ms delay value as a - value in the Midi Clock Sync Delay box.

15. Record the loop again in the audio channel and zoom in on the sample to see if any more correction is needed.

Vertical
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Post by Vertical » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:45 am

XenzSneekerz,

Thanks for the tip.

What you wrote helps to ensure that midi which is already recorded plays back correctly to get recorded via audio in.

What it doesn't seem to do, and correct me if I'm wrong, is to record my live midi playing at the correct time.

Here is what I'm doing, I have my audio card latency set at it's highest setting (to make an obvious test). I set the "midi to" in my track to "No Output". I have my midi keyboard's local control set to on. I am monitoring the keyboard seperately via direct monitoring through my soundcard's mixer.

No matter what I set the track delay to, the notes do not record at the time I hit the notes. They record WAY after.

Is there any way to fix this?

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:04 am

Vertical wrote:XenzSneekerz,

Thanks for the tip.

What you wrote helps to ensure that midi which is already recorded plays back correctly to get recorded via audio in.

What it doesn't seem to do, and correct me if I'm wrong, is to record my live midi playing at the correct time.

Here is what I'm doing, I have my audio card latency set at it's highest setting (to make an obvious test). I set the "midi to" in my track to "No Output". I have my midi keyboard's local control set to on. I am monitoring the keyboard seperately via direct monitoring through my soundcard's mixer.

No matter what I set the track delay to, the notes do not record at the time I hit the notes. They record WAY after.

Is there any way to fix this?
Hi,

If I understand well your usecase, you do not need to monitor the MIDI data in Live, since you are listening to the audio from your synth directly right? So, you have to set the monitoring to OFF on the MIDI track you are recording to. Monitoring is meant to be ON when it is needed, so the audio you listen to comes from Live, and is also delayed by the latency.

Hope I'm not overlooking anything.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

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