MIDI delay recording

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icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:22 pm

Amaury,

The way most people monitor a hardware synth while recording it, is to monitor directly, not through Live.

Are you suggesting that to get proper midi timing, the audio from hardware synths should be monitored through Live, including it's latency?

Vertical
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Post by Vertical » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:24 pm

Amaury wrote:
Vertical wrote:XenzSneekerz,

Thanks for the tip.

What you wrote helps to ensure that midi which is already recorded plays back correctly to get recorded via audio in.

What it doesn't seem to do, and correct me if I'm wrong, is to record my live midi playing at the correct time.

Here is what I'm doing, I have my audio card latency set at it's highest setting (to make an obvious test). I set the "midi to" in my track to "No Output". I have my midi keyboard's local control set to on. I am monitoring the keyboard seperately via direct monitoring through my soundcard's mixer.

No matter what I set the track delay to, the notes do not record at the time I hit the notes. They record WAY after.

Is there any way to fix this?
Hi,

If I understand well your usecase, you do not need to monitor the MIDI data in Live, since you are listening to the audio from your synth directly right? So, you have to set the monitoring to OFF on the MIDI track you are recording to. Monitoring is meant to be ON when it is needed, so the audio you listen to comes from Live, and is also delayed by the latency.

Hope I'm not overlooking anything.

Regards,
Amaury
Amaury,

Thanks for the tip. I will try this when I get home tonight.

V

PS. I want really badly for Live to work out for my setup since it is the only host so far that thinks the way I do about writing music.

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:34 pm

icedsushi wrote:Amaury,

The way most people monitor a hardware synth while recording it, is to monitor directly, not through Live.

Are you suggesting that to get proper midi timing, the audio from hardware synths should be monitored through Live, including it's latency?
Hi,

No, I'm saying quite the opposite: if you are monitoring the sound of your synth directly through an outboard mixer for example, there is no need to monitor is through Live, neither there is a need to monitor the MIDI data. So in that case, turn OFF the monitoring on your MIDI track while recording and monitoring the audio through your outboard mixer, and you'll get the MIDI data recorded as you played it.

Sorry if I confused you in the first place.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:45 pm

OK, I was confused by the midi data part I guess.

It shouldn't matter whether monitoring on the midi track is set to IN AUTO or OFF, if the midi is just being recorded onto the track with no output of the track selected.

If monitoring directly through outboard mixer, is the timing of recorded midi the same in all three monitoring positions of the track? Should be, hopefully...

(I guess I can also do the experiment myself when I get home.)

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:18 pm

icedsushi wrote:OK, I was confused by the midi data part I guess.

It shouldn't matter whether monitoring on the midi track is set to IN AUTO or OFF, if the midi is just being recorded onto the track with no output of the track selected.

If monitoring directly through outboard mixer, is the timing of recorded midi the same in all three monitoring positions of the track? Should be, hopefully...

(I guess I can also do the experiment myself when I get home.)
Hi,

It's not really the case, as another track can have its input set to receive the MIDI track data. So, the monitor state of the MIDI track always matters.

regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:15 pm

Strange and confusing. I would think midi should always be recorded in the same spot in relation to the click, no matter what monitor setting.

There's no way for Live to know or compensate, whether it's a hardware or software synth anyway, where the latencies are different. So I don't see how recording the midi at a different time depending on midi monitor setting would be helpful. Seems like it confuses the matter.

Vertical
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Post by Vertical » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:31 pm

icedsushi wrote:Strange and confusing. I would think midi should always be recorded in the same spot in relation to the click, no matter what monitor setting.

There's no way for Live to know or compensate, whether it's a hardware or software synth anyway, where the latencies are different. So I don't see how recording the midi at a different time depending on midi monitor setting would be helpful. Seems like it confuses the matter.
There are times when Live expects you to play midi ahead of time so that by the time you hear it, you hear it on time...and that is where it places the midi note.

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:41 am

icedsushi wrote:Strange and confusing. I would think midi should always be recorded in the same spot in relation to the click, no matter what monitor setting.

There's no way for Live to know or compensate, whether it's a hardware or software synth anyway, where the latencies are different. So I don't see how recording the midi at a different time depending on midi monitor setting would be helpful. Seems like it confuses the matter.
Hi,

Vertical got it quite spot on. What would be the reason for a need to monitor MIDI data anyway, if not monitoring any synth? Monitoring MIDI is only needed if the incoming MIDI is playing a sound. In that case, as you may hear the sound a bit late, and have the tendency to like to hear the sound on the click, so the MIDI data is recorded where you heard the sound.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

Nod
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Post by Nod » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:33 am

Amaury wrote:Monitoring MIDI is only needed if the incoming MIDI is playing a sound. In that case, as you may hear the sound a bit late, and have the tendency to like to hear the sound on the click, so the MIDI data is recorded where you heard the sound.
Hi Amaury - can you tell us yet whether this behaviour is going to be optional in Live 7?

ie: Will, with the option provided, Live 7 record the MIDI *exactly* as it was played, regardless of the monitoring setting, rather than an extrapolation due to inherent latencies?

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:51 am

This problem gives me a headache to think about. Sometimes I think I understand it and then I fade in and out of forgetting my understanding of it. :?

What I can say for sure is that the timing of the midi that is recorded, is not *exactly* as it was played. I don't think it should be the job of the the individual users to figure out the theory behind why it's not working. It's only our job to report that it's not working. And if Ableton tell us that their theory is correct, all we can do is express our continued frustration with the problem. Hopefully everyone continues to speak up instead of giving up. I don't know what else to do besides what we've been doing.

Whether Ableton say they are doing it the "right way" or not, I'm not getting an accurate reproduction of what I played. So, I always have to go back and nudge the notes to get it to sound how I played it in the first place. Hopefully it is obvious by now, that there are plenty of others who feel the same way.

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:02 am

icedsushi wrote:This problem gives me a headache to think about. Sometimes I think I understand it and then I fade in and out of forgetting my understanding of it. :?

What I can say for sure is that the timing of the midi that is recorded, is not *exactly* as it was played. I don't think it should be the job of the the individual users to figure out the theory behind why it's not working. It's only our job to report that it's not working. And if Ableton tell us that their theory is correct, all we can do is express our continued frustration with the problem. Hopefully everyone continues to speak up instead of giving up. I don't know what else to do besides what we've been doing.

Whether Ableton say they are doing it the "right way" or not, I'm not getting an accurate reproduction of what I played. So, I always have to go back and nudge the notes to get it to sound how I played it in the first place. Hopefully it is obvious by now, that there are plenty of others who feel the same way.
Hi,

I do not want to go into a debate again, as it brings more confusion than anything else. We are not saying that we are right and the world is wrong, I am only trying to tell how it works now. The rest is up to other people, and I can't tell what decisions would be made.

Monitoring should only be ON for MIDI recording if you monitor sound through Live (the played MIDI data plays a soft synth). In that case, what you hear while recording is what get on play back. No theory, just straight behaviour: if you manage to play in order to hear the sound on the beat, the sound will be on the beat on play back.

In any other case, if you don't monitor any sound through Live, monitoring should be set to OFF on the MIDI track. In that case, the notes are recorded where you play them.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:47 pm

Amaury wrote:In any other case, if you don't monitor any sound through Live, monitoring should be set to OFF on the MIDI track. In that case, the notes are recorded where you play them.
In this situation without monitoring through Live (recording midi notes only from hardware), I have been using AUTO. Do you think using AUTO instead off OFF has been affecting my timing? :idea: :?:

Amaury
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Post by Amaury » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:14 pm

icedsushi wrote:
Amaury wrote:In any other case, if you don't monitor any sound through Live, monitoring should be set to OFF on the MIDI track. In that case, the notes are recorded where you play them.
In this situation without monitoring through Live (recording midi notes only from hardware), I have been using AUTO. Do you think using AUTO instead off OFF has been affecting my timing? :idea: :?:
Hi,

As for audio, auto means that monitoring is ON if the track is armed, and OFF if the track is not armed. So, yes, is should have affcted your timing.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:33 pm

Amaury wrote:As for audio,
Well, we're talking about the monitor setting of a midi track so I'm not sure what you mean by "as for audio". Even if you select IN, the midi isn't going anywhere out of the track. It's only being recorded.

But you say it will affect my timing, so I will try OFF when recording a hardware synth to a midi track and see if my results improve.

longjohns
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Post by longjohns » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:52 pm

"as for audio" means "as is also the case with audio"

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