MIDI delay recording

[murphf]

I also use direct monitoring through my sound card and set audio tracks to 'off' when I record sound. No problems there. (one complaint would be that I always have to do an extra click when recording, it would be nice if it were possible to have a preference that sets monitoring to 'off' as the default).

Midi, however, keeps puzzling me. I use exclusively external gear (no VSTis). It is set up so that the midi only reaches the gear if I arm a midi track in Ableton. So I presume the midi goes through Ableton before reaching my synths.

In which setting is the midi recorded as I heard it when I played: the 'off' or the 'auto' setting? Reading the above it should be the 'auto' setting, is that correct?

(BTW, I believe that I do automatically compensate for delay when I play, as we all do when we are at some distance from our monitors, like in a live situation).

Apparently, the 'off' setting performs some delay compensation, so the midi notes are moved forward the amount of time that the slowest VST takes to calculate its sound + our sound cards delay, is that right?

[Pasha]

I also use direct monitoring through my sound card and set audio tracks to 'off' when I record sound. No problems there. (one complaint would be that I always have to do an extra click when recording, it would be nice if it were possible to have a preference that sets monitoring to 'off' as the default).

Midi, however, keeps puzzling me. I use exclusively external gear (no VSTis). It is set up so that the midi only reaches the gear if I arm a midi track in Ableton. So I presume the midi goes through Ableton before reaching my synths.

In which setting is the midi recorded as I heard it when I played: the 'off' or the 'auto' setting? Reading the above it should be the 'auto' setting, is that correct?

(BTW, I believe that I do automatically compensate for delay when I play, as we all do when we are at some distance from our monitors, like in a live situation).

Apparently, the 'off' setting performs some delay compensation, so the midi notes are moved forward the amount of time that the slowest VST takes to calculate its sound + our sound cards delay, is that right?

Murphf,
How do you manage to record using external modules when monitor is off?
I've to set it to auto otherwise no MIDI reaches my JV1010...

[murphf]

Murphf,
How do you manage to record using external modules when monitor is off?
I've to set it to auto otherwise no MIDI reaches my JV1010...

I arm two tracks, one set to 'off' and one to 'auto', and route the midi notes of the 'auto' track to my synth. I only record a clip to the 'off' track. of course, both are set to receive midi from my controller.

We had to always do this with an earlier version of live, when the timing under 'auto' midi recording was off much more than it is now (if it is off).

But the questions I have above still stand! In which setting is the midi timing, relative to the other (already recorded midi and sound) tracks, the same as I heard it when I played it? - Is there such a setting?

[popslut]

But the questions I have above still stand! In which setting is the midi timing, relative to the other (already recorded midi and sound) tracks, the same as I heard it when I played it? - Is there such a setting?

Yes there is - "on" or "auto" will place the notes into the sequence WITH the latency - just like you heard it.

If you want them to appear where you played them - you have to set it to "off".

So - with Ableton Live, the notes are in the "right" place only if you can't actually hear yourself play them. Superb logic.

Reminds me of an old joke.

Man walks into a clothes shop and asks "How much are those Levi jeans in the window?"

"£50" says the shop guy.

"Well, there's a shop across town that lists the same jeans for £30 you know.." says the man.

"So why don't you buy them from there then?" asks the shop guy.

"They don't have any in stock." says the man.

"Well," says the shop guy "When we don't have any in stock ours are £30 too."

[murphf]

Popslut, if you are correct and 'auto' does record what you hear, there is not much wrong with that.

You wouldn't want a tape recorder that moved the sound forward after it is taped, as 'off' apparently does. Now that would screw up the timing. or am I overlooking something?

But does 'auto' really preserve the timing as it was when you heard it relative to previous recordings?

[iain.morland]

Again, it's not that it's illogical - I appreciate the points made by both murphf and popslut - but that it's crazily unconventional.

Why should the choice of monitoring options make a difference to the timing of what's recorded? This is a Live quirk; you don't need to think about it with other DAWs.

Hence the endless twists and turns of this thread (and incidentally I feel no closer to really understanding the technical side of all this)!

[longjohns]

Why should the choice of monitoring options make a difference to the timing of what's recorded?

Because, if you are monitoring via the track you're recording on, and you hear your playing as in time with the rest of your set, then you are compensating for the latency yourself. Therefore if you actually want the events to line up, then the new recording needs to be shifted backwards in time (right?)

hehe

[tylenol]

Again, it's not that it's illogical - I appreciate the points made by both murphf and popslut - but that it's crazily unconventional.

Why should the choice of monitoring options make a difference to the timing of what's recorded? This is a Live quirk; you don't need to think about it with other DAWs.

Hence the endless twists and turns of this thread (and incidentally I feel no closer to really understanding the technical side of all this)!

Naive question: what do other DAWs do? Am I right in understanding that they act like live with monitor=off, in terms of timing (i.e. do not record what you hear, but what you play)? Because as I understand it you can either have record what you hear when you monitor, or record what you play (when you hit the keys) when you monitor (or not), but not both.

[Pasha]

Again, it's not that it's illogical - I appreciate the points made by both murphf and popslut - but that it's crazily unconventional.

Why should the choice of monitoring options make a difference to the timing of what's recorded? This is a Live quirk; you don't need to think about it with other DAWs.

Hence the endless twists and turns of this thread (and incidentally I feel no closer to really understanding the technical side of all this)!

Naive question: what do other DAWs do? Am I right in understanding that they act like live with monitor=off, in terms of timing (i.e. do not record what you hear, but what you play)? Because as I understand it you can either have record what you hear when you monitor, or record what you play (when you hit the keys) when you monitor (or not), but not both.

Although my experience with other DAWs is limited to Cubase, I also have been recording in studios until 2002. We never have experienced such problems even if we used external gears and very few VSTi. I think the main reason behind it is that I always have used quantize in studio and at home. I have done very deep testing and I can confirm that Live records what you hear when recording MIDI and monitor is auto or in. When Monitor is off Live records what you play. When Quantize is on Live records 'tight to the beat' and no difference can be noticed between the two monitor setups. This is because the Quantize algorithm acts as a magnet and places the notes in the right place both ways.
That's why I never noticed it. A further experiment is to flatten the two tracks (one with monitor off and one with monitor auto) and the compare the resulting audio. You can easy see that the audio is recorded at different places. If I record pure audio (a guitar) audio is recorded as I play and seems is not shifted, because as the Abes say monitoring audio uncouples hearing from recording, because no sound generation is involved. If you plug in your microphone,add reverb to the track and monitor thru live when recording, you will notice latency but what you record is not shifted in any way.
When I want to record an 'alive' like performance I always use external gear, so that I can route MIDI with monitor set to auto to the external gear and then simultaneously record Audio onto another track. Because Audio is recorded in a different way I obtain a good 'alive' effect without having to deal with MIDI.
Sure if I record MIDI without quantization and I want to edit the recorded material I can do it only on the track that had monitor off. Even if this sounds annoying it's a good walk around, while Ableton fixes the issue, but only for non-quantized MIDI.

- Best
- Pasha

[popslut]

Popslut, if you are correct and 'auto' does record what you hear, there is not much wrong with that.

You wouldn't want a tape recorder that moved the sound forward after it is taped, as 'off' apparently does. Now that would screw up the timing. or am I overlooking something?

But a tape recorder [when monitoring from the 'sync' head] introduces no significant latency. This problem is unique to DAWs because of the inherent nature of the way they work.

The "problem" we are discussing has been very succinctly encapsulated thus:

In monitor "on/auto" mode, Live captures what you hear. *1

In monitor "off" mode, Live captures what you play. *2


Despite what has been said about trained pianists being able to play parts consistently 30ms early, I maintain that for the majority of musicians this is a big ask. I speak as a professional recording engineer with 20 years experience.

I simply cannot imagine expecting a musician to "play early" in order to compensate for the shortcomings of the recording medium and this [Live's] approach to monitoring/latency compensation is a total anachronism.

For recording audio, the workaround is to use Direct Monitoring and remember to set monitoring to "off" - although, as has been said, it would be nice if this was the default state to prevent cursing when one forgets in the heat of an intense recording session.

For midi recording with external synths the above workaround doesn't work because if monitoring is set to "off" you can't hear what you're playing. To have to use two tracks with one set to "on/auto" and one set to "off" is ridiculously cumbersome and the fact that people are having to resort to this to record their performances accurately suggests to me that a design fault is present.

With professionally pitched [and priced] equipment like Ableton Live, we expect seamless functionality. We don't expect to have to resort to clumsy "workarounds".

With all other DAWs and midi sequencers, midi latency is minimal and virtually undetectable. Midi is passed through to external gear without adding audio latency and midi data recorded is placed in the sequence exactly as played - as you would expect.

With Ableton Live, midi data is passed through to external gear with the latency of the sound card added [?!?!] despite the midi data never having to pass through the soundcard. Then, assuming you want to hear what you are playing, [I'm sure somebody will argue that a "trained pianist" is capable of playing without hearing the actual notes... ] the midi data is placed in the sequence 30ms [or whatever] later than you played it.

Whether you consider this arrangement "illogical" or not [and I certainly do] the fact that it keeps being reported as a bug suggests that enough people consider it counter-intuitive for the Abletons to consider including a preferences option to make all monitoring modes compensate for latency - so that they all behave as if in "off" mode.

I think this issue will keep cropping up until they do.








*1 (That is, it records the performance with the latency so that if you don't compensate for the latency of the system whilst playing your performance will be late by whatever your system latency is.)


*2 (That is, it records the performance as you played it, without latency and without the assumption that you have compensated for the system latency yourself.)

[murphf]

With Ableton Live, midi data is passed through to external gear with the latency of the sound card added [?!?!] despite the midi data never having to pass through the soundcard. [/i]

If this is true, I think this could be core of the problem (sorry if it has been said before in this thread).

Of course, best would be if you hear what you play (exactly at the time that you play it), and record what you hear AND what you play. Ideally, they should be the same.*

Does Ableton really add the soundcard's latency to the output midi notes and to recorded midi in 'auto/in' mode?

I can perhaps see the point of doing that with VSTis, which can never produce sound before it is calculated. Therefore, midi notes that record what you hear have to have the same latency if VSTis are used. But it makes no sense to do this with external synths. Holding up the midi notes before they are sent to external gear while recording makes even less sense.

I hope one of the Abletonians could step in and explain exactly what is going on in the different monitor modes. How do they (how does 'auto', as only auto passes them on) pass on notes to external gear, and how do they record them?

*Of course, there will awlays be some latency in/from the external synth but we all have long learned to live with that.

[Pasha]

Popslut, if you are correct and 'auto' does record what you hear, there is not much wrong with that.

You wouldn't want a tape recorder that moved the sound forward after it is taped, as 'off' apparently does. Now that would screw up the timing. or am I overlooking something?

But a tape recorder [when monitoring from the 'sync' head] introduces no significant latency. This problem is unique to DAWs because of the inherent nature of the way they work.

The "problem" we are discussing has been very succinctly encapsulated thus:

In monitor "on/auto" mode, Live captures what you hear. *1

In monitor "off" mode, Live captures what you play. *2


Despite what has been said about trained pianists being able to play parts consistently 30ms early, I maintain that for the majority of musicians this is a big ask. I speak as a professional recording engineer with 20 years experience.

I simply cannot imagine expecting a musician to "play early" in order to compensate for the shortcomings of the recording medium and this [Live's] approach to monitoring/latency compensation is a total anachronism.

For recording audio, the workaround is to use Direct Monitoring and remember to set monitoring to "off" - although, as has been said, it would be nice if this was the default state to prevent cursing when one forgets in the heat of an intense recording session.

For midi recording with external synths the above workaround doesn't work because if monitoring is set to "off" you can't hear what you're playing. To have to use two tracks with one set to "on/auto" and one set to "off" is ridiculously cumbersome and the fact that people are having to resort to this to record their performances accurately suggests to me that a design fault is present.

With professionally pitched [and priced] equipment like Ableton Live, we expect seamless functionality. We don't expect to have to resort to clumsy "workarounds".

With all other DAWs and midi sequencers, midi latency is minimal and virtually undetectable. Midi is passed through to external gear without adding audio latency and midi data recorded is placed in the sequence exactly as played - as you would expect.

With Ableton Live, midi data is passed through to external gear with the latency of the sound card added [?!?!] despite the midi data never having to pass through the soundcard. Then, assuming you want to hear what you are playing, [I'm sure somebody will argue that a "trained pianist" is capable of playing without hearing the actual notes... ] the midi data is placed in the sequence 30ms [or whatever] later than you played it.

Whether you consider this arrangement "illogical" or not [and I certainly do] the fact that it keeps being reported as a bug suggests that enough people consider it counter-intuitive for the Abletons to consider including a preferences option to make all monitoring modes compensate for latency - so that they all behave as if in "off" mode.

I think this issue will keep cropping up until they do.








*1 (That is, it records the performance with the latency so that if you don't compensate for the latency of the system whilst playing your performance will be late by whatever your system latency is.)


*2 (That is, it records the performance as you played it, without latency and without the assumption that you have compensated for the system latency yourself.)

Very well detailed, thank you.
But why nobody makes a distinction between MIDI recorded with quantization on or off? This affects recordings only when Record Quantize is Off.
Can someone detail as well what happens to Audio recordings when monitor is AUTO or OFF? It seems to me audio is recorded correctly otherwise elastic audio won't work.. Am I missing something?

- Best Regards
- Paolo

[popslut]

why nobody makes a distinction between MIDI recorded with quantization on or off?

Because with regard to the question of monitoring modes/latency compensation it is largely irrelevant. Except, of course, that the problem of midi data being placed without latency compensation will be covered up by automatic record quantisation.

If you're going to quantise everything to hard 16ths anyway, recording with auto quantise on will act as a reasonably effective workaround. For those of us who don't always quantise midi data it is irrelevant.

This affects recordings only when Record Quantize is Off. [...]

No it doesn't. See above.

Can someone detail as well what happens to Audio recordings when monitor is AUTO or OFF? It seems to me audio is recorded correctly otherwise elastic audio won't work..

I already did. See my last [long] post.

In monitor "on/auto" mode, Live captures what you hear.

(That is, it records the performance with the latency so that if you don't compensate for the latency of the system whilst playing your performance will be late by whatever your system latency is.)



In monitor "off" mode, Live captures what you play.

(That is, it records the performance as you played it, without latency and without the assumption that you have compensated for the system latency yourself.)

[Pasha]

why nobody makes a distinction between MIDI recorded with quantization on or off?

Because with regard to the question of monitoring modes/latency compensation it is largely irrelevant. Except, of course, that the problem of midi data being placed without latency compensation will be covered up by automatic record quantisation.

If you're going to quantise everything to hard 16ths anyway, recording with auto quantise on will act as a reasonably effective workaround. For those of us who don't always quantise midi data it is irrelevant.

This affects recordings only when Record Quantize is Off. [...]

No it doesn't. See above.

Can someone detail as well what happens to Audio recordings when monitor is AUTO or OFF? It seems to me audio is recorded correctly otherwise elastic audio won't work..

I already did. See my last [long] post.

In monitor "on/auto" mode, Live captures what you hear.

(That is, it records the performance with the latency so that if you don't compensate for the latency of the system whilst playing your performance will be late by whatever your system latency is.)



In monitor "off" mode, Live captures what you play.

(That is, it records the performance as you played it, without latency and without the assumption that you have compensated for the system latency yourself.)

Thanks. Sorry If some of my assumptions were incorrect.
I do not have all your experience
Now it's all clear to me. So far I have recorded good (good refers to the sync of all components not the quality.... ) music with Live and I will continue do so, but I'll keep an inspecting eye on what's going on in the background. Sorry if I was stubborn but I was trying to understand why, although this problem existed I was able to record, play and mix with no problems on different machines, swapping Audio Interfaces and sound generators without incurring into glitches. Now I know my 16th quantize saved me a little bit and low latency made Audio sync with the rest negligible to my ears.

As you see I got latency in my idea flows... my understanding took soooo long! I should switch Brain Monitor Off.

[popslut]

Sorry...

Don't be.